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Home » Reader question » Reader question: Heerlen continues to refuse tax exemption
Dear readers,
I have been living in a rented house in Bangkok for 1 year. I live on my AOW and a small (non ABP) pension, which is paid directly into a Thai bank account every month. Furthermore, no income and no property in NL anymore. I have 2x in vain at the foreign tax office in Heerlen for exemption from the tax on my pension. Rejected twice because I can't prove I'm a tax resident in Thailand.
I don't have the questions for a tax number in Thailand and proof of tax payment. Although the contract places pension income under Thai tax, Heerlen continues to refuse.
How do I get on with this, can someone help me with contacts or examples of an exemption?
Regards,
Hans
Please have a look here first:
https://www.thailandblog.nl/lezers-inzending/problemen-heerlen-belastingvrijstelling/
This gentleman also asked for exemption a few times and finally filed a complaint with the national ombudsman. He forwarded it to the tax complaints department. He was granted an exemption because he could demonstrate that he does not have to leave the country with an extension due to retirement.
Do like him.
You can also point the people in Heerlen to the email to me in the summer of 2014, which email is included in the tax file for post-actives in this blog. From memory: questions 6 to 9. Feel free to copy that (if possible); that email was sent to me by Heerlen and signed by an academic from the technical department.
Otherwise you have two options:
Have the application made by a tax advisor in the Netherlands, or wait for deduction and object to the wage tax withheld. Think of the deadlines and postal delay.
Success.
Have the application made by a good tax advisor in the Netherlands at all times.
Mine took a weekend to study the treaty, then submitted the application and I was immediately granted an exemption. For good, for everything.
That costs a few hundred euros, but then you are rid of a lot of trouble and it is done professionally.
Unfortunately, getting justice costs money and a few hundred euros.
If you do not have to pay in Thailand, I have written about this repeatedly, small pensions must be declared but do not cost baht tax, registration is unnecessary. At a rate of 36 and 64+ or disabled, the first (roughly) 1.100 e/month is taxed here, but you do not have to pay.
Can you give the name and address of this adviser.
Yes Adrian Buijze.
It is accountancy firm Simonse and Geus in Heinkenszamd, Zeeland.
Tavc. Mark Simonse
He knows the ins and outs and arranged it pico bello for me. He knows the treaty and thinks that a civil servant should not comply with it.
He doesn't do it for nothing, but it's certainly not expensive.
SUCCESS.
So go to the tax office in Thailand and ask for a tax number.
Not a problem.
Do bring a letter of confirmation from the Thai bank. This is an overview of the transactions on the Thai bank account.
Precisely !
What is the problem for Hans? Hans, you register with the Thai tax authorities tomorrow, you will immediately receive a card with a tax number. Doesn't that work much faster than entering into a long battle with Heerlen?!
If this is not enough, you file a declaration in Thailand and given your small pension (as Hans himself indicates) you do not have to pay a penny (up to more than 400.000 baht you do not pay anything).
Then you have 2 pieces of evidence and Heerlen can no longer interfere.
Dear Kees
Thanks for your information
can you tell me what i
besides passport even further
for documents to bring
to obtain this tax number?
and Which desk at the revenue department
Thanks for your cooperation
Barry in Pattaya
I also had this and decided to pay taxes in Thailand. There are many deductions in Thailand so tax is much, much less than the Netherlands. Don't forget that tax on AOW and possibly. Civil servant pensions must always be paid in the Netherlands. With private pensions you can choose between NL and Thailand. Atract items in Thailand include standard deductions 90,000, 65+ 190,000, life insurance premium expenses, certain medical expenses, wife and family expenses, large purchase tax refunds, etc. Of what remains, the first 150.000 is taxed at 0%. Well worth finding out and therefore staying "legal".
Peter, where is that option in the treaty? I can not find it. It's not there either.
Ask Heerlen. Private pension counts as “World Income” that has to be taxed somewhere. Without action from the recipient, this will be taxed in the payout country.
You should not ask “Heerlen”, Peter. Then you are really at the wrong place. That is not what she is about.
“Who” and “on what” may levy is determined by the Tax Treaty Netherlands-Thailand and not by the Foreign Office of the Tax Authorities. You can read how this is then regulated in the Treaty in Article 18, which reads:
Article 18. Pensions and annuities
1. Subject to the provisions of paragraph 19 of this Article and paragraph XNUMX of Article XNUMX, pensions and other similar remuneration in respect of past employment shall be paid to a resident of one of the States, as well as payments to such resident annuities are taxable ONLY in that State.
2. However, such income MAY ALSO be taxed in the other State to the extent that it is as such an expense of profits made in that other State by an enterprise of that other State or by an enterprise which has a permanent establishment therein.
As Erik Kuijpers already indicated, there is no choice for YOU.
Peter, I also started paying taxes in Thailand, but would like to discuss the deductions with you.
Can you email me at [email protected]?
Does anyone know the payroll tax number of the SVB? by the way my email is [email protected] Sorry!
It would be good to publish deductions here on this blog so that people know what to expect or to fill in with the Thai income tax return.
Dear Ger,
If you really want to know what to expect after filing your tax return, you will not only need to have an overview of the deduction, but also of the tax bases (what does Thailand levy income tax on) and the different rates. And that is all too much to list in Thailand Blog.
For my practice I usually consult the following websites:
Thai Tax Office:
http://www.rd.go.th/publish/6045.0.html
http://www.rd.go.th/publish/48247.0.html
PWC Thailand – Thai taxes:
http://www.pwc.com/th/en/publications/assets/Thai-Tax-2016-Booklet-en.pdf
Mazars, Bangkok – Personal Income Tax:
http://www.mazars.co.th/Home/Doing-Business-in-Thailand/Payroll/Personal-Income-Tax
Chapter 12 – Personal Taxes Thailand:
http://www.bia.co.th/016.html
Thai tax website (english):
http://www.rd.go.th/publish/16399.0.html
Tax treaty between the Netherlands and Thailand:
http://www.rd.go.th/publish/1785.0.html
I personally do not think it is necessary to apply for an exemption from the tax authorities
I am fighting it my way through a notice of objection to the Central Appeals Board
And I must say it works well
It is just a pity, Eduard, that the Central Appeals Board does not issue an exemption statement for payroll tax withholding. She's not about that.
Erik Wanner finally wants to admit that your way of a long-term battle with Heerlen is not always the right way. There is a simple way and that is a choice. Go to the Thai tax authorities and file a tax return and pay a small amount. And please don't come back with that sour reaction from entire people who cannot make a donation and cannot pay. That is not true. If your provincial office cannot or does not want to help you, you must go to the REGIONAL office and you will certainly be helped. I speak from personal experience and a number of Dutch people in the province of Buriram who followed my advice have the same positive experience. Erik, I don't doubt your knowledge of the treaty for a moment, but perhaps my knowledge about the behavior of Thai officials is slightly greater due to my very long stay in Thailand..
And what prevails Rob, treaty, law or official?
And what is the value of an e-mail from a drs of the Heerlen tax authorities?
Finally: I have no problem with Heerlen, not for 15 years. My request lasts for a month and then is ready for another ten years. With that I close this.
May I ask you, Rob Huai Rat, how extensive your experience is? My experiences and then with countless Dutch people living in Thailand clearly indicate a different direction. Even if such a client of mine also hires a lawyer, success is not always guaranteed. In such a case I refuse to give the advice to take a “thick envelope with contents” to the tax office!
Lammert and one of the other Dutch people gave me a thick envelope. I was sent away a few times by Buriram with the message that no foreign declarations, only Thai. After the last rejection, I was visiting Khon Kaen a few days later and walked in there on spec. I thought bigger city bigger office maybe more knowledge. I asked at the reception if I could speak to someone about reporting a foreigner. Without any hesitation, a phone call and I was taken to an office by another lady. Everything was explained to me there by a knowledgeable official. The Thai tax authorities have divided the country into regions and each group of provinces has an office with treaty knowledge and people who can issue the English declaration. Unfortunately, he could not help me because, as a resident of Buriram, I fell under the Nakhon Ratchasima (Korat) regional office. When I reported to Korat, there was no hesitation and I was immediately taken to an office and helped properly. My experience is not extensive, but I can say that people who had problems with the Buriram office were also helped very well by Korat after my story. Two people who had a small pension, which meant they fell below the taxable limit, also received the necessary statement. Like Erik, I close this. I just wanted to make it clear to people that there is another option. The path of least resistance and therefore unfortunately giving in to Heerlen's demands even though they are contrary to the treaty. I have no further interest in this state of affairs and wanted to give people a choice. So I will no longer respond to this topic on this blog.
Last year in Sawang Daen Din (Isaan) I applied for a Thai Tax number (I had to insist), received it after a few weeks and then paid a settlement amount of 5.000 Baht. This settlement amount due to irregular transfers from NL to Thailand (savings and early retirement), I just submitted my updated bank book. Now go there every six months, check the bank book for the first six months – pay the declaration and the settlement amount at the beginning of the new year. With the Thai tax number and the Thai tax return for 1, you received 2015 years of tax exemption in the Netherlands (you will then receive letters for your non-government supplementary pension fund) !!!
Know this amount. Small Thai entrepreneurs may also pay this settlement amount of 5000 baht if they do not keep records, so as a kind of tax assessment. It would be great if you could pay this as a pensioner, a one-off annual assessment. The proof for Heerlen and the pensionado only pays next to nothing in tax, but officially to the Thai tax authorities. Maybe you can ask for it, instead of filling in a declaration with details, ask for a decision of 5000 baht where you don't have to fill in any data.
The problems with the Foreign Office of the Tax Authorities are regularly discussed in Thailand Blog. Loyal readers should by now know from the inside out how things work out.
Just a few months ago, Hans Bos posted a very readable article about the new requirements that Office Abroad has set for obtaining an exemption from withholding wage tax. Many comments have been posted on this.
The Foreign Office is not satisfied with a card from the Thai Tax Authorities with your tax number on it. She demands a statement from this service that you are actually registered as a taxable person in Thailand. Without such a statement, the application will not even be processed.
I've also written quite a bit about this in the recent past, but come on, I'll do it again.
First of all this:
1. the exemption form used by the Tax Authorities has lost its legal basis as of January 1, 2003 as a result of an amendment to the Wage Tax Act 1964;
2. It is not the Tax Authorities and not even national law that determine which country may levy what, usually to the exclusion of the other country: this is exhaustively regulated in the Netherlands-Thailand Tax Treaty;
3. The Foreign Office of the Tax Authorities seems to have a patent on the lack of treaty knowledge;
4. This also applies to concepts such as tax liability, reporting obligation, tax debt and subsequently paying tax; These concepts were, figuratively speaking, ingrained in me some 45 years ago.
How do you circumvent the required statement from the Thai tax authorities, if such a statement is not in your possession?
For this you should consult the Tax Treaty Netherlands-Thailand. This Treaty provides exhaustive details of which country you are a tax resident of and which country is therefore allowed to levy taxes on your occupational pension. Collect the necessary evidence, which shows that you are a tax resident of Thailand and therefore not of the Netherlands. You cannot be a tax resident of both the Netherlands and Thailand.
You then add this proof to your application for exemption. Please indicate why you are taking this route. You should not expect any treaty knowledge from the Foreign Office. So you will have to guide them step by step through the Treaty. Too bad, but it's just no different!
You can derive the supporting documents to be submitted from Article 4 of the Convention.
Slightly abbreviated and where relevant, you are deemed to be resident for tax purposes under Section 4 (and also in this order):
a. of the State where you have a permanent home at your disposal; if that is the case in both States, you will be deemed to be a resident of the State with which your personal and economic relations are closer (centre of vital interests);
b. if this cannot be determined then you shall be deemed to be a resident of the State in which you have an habitual abode.
Re a. You have deregistered from the Netherlands and no longer have a permanent home available to you here. In Thailand you rent a house. In that case, it becomes very easy to prove that you are a tax resident of Thailand: you send the proof of registration with your municipality, the rental contract and proof of rent payments and payments for the supply of water and energy costs. That is the route I usually take with Thai clients who are not registered with the Thai tax authorities. After all, it is about demonstrating that you have a sustainable home at your disposal in Thailand and not whether or not you pay tax in Thailand!
You can also think of additional evidence, such as your bills for your telephone and internet connection, receipts and so on. But also whether you live in Thailand together with a partner with or without a child
This not only shows that you have a permanent home at your disposal in Thailand, but also that your economic and personal relations are closest with Thailand, i.e. where the center of your vital interests lies.
Ad b. If you cannot meet a. (which I can hardly imagine) then there is always the possibility to show where you usually reside with your registration, your visa and your passport with the necessary stamps. But in my practice it has not come to that yet.
In addition, I would advise you to have your pension transferred directly by the pension provider to a Thai bank account, in order to prevent the application of Article 27 of the Treaty: the so-called remittance base, whereby the taxing authority does return to the Netherlands.
If the Tax and Customs Administration persists in its refusal to grant an exemption, you should object after the first deduction from your company pension. Even then a rejection will probably follow, because the Tax and Customs Administration is in most cases very consistent in the sense of: GOING WRONG ONCE IS ALWAYS WRONG.
But even then no problem: appeal to the Administrative Court! This will cost you € 46 in court fees, but you can submit the notice of appeal digitally to the court. However, do follow the right path, as indicated on the website of the relevant Court.
In this context, see also the comments already posted by former colleague Erik Kuijpers, in which you can find me in full.
But there may be another way to lure the Tax and Customs Administration, the Foreign Office, out of the tent. That is the way of filing a tax return, in which you state that your company pension is not taxed in the Netherlands and through which you request a refund of the wage tax withheld by means of an assessment.
My experience is that there is little or no monitoring of this. But if the Tax and Customs Administration rejects this now and they do so by means of a provisional assessment, you will have to be patient and wait for the final assessment. No objection can be lodged against a provisional assessment. This is only possible after the definition assessment.
And when I read that the person who asked this question, Hans, emigrated to Thailand only a year ago, I suspect that he has already received an invitation to file a tax return by means of the paper tax return form Model M. That is i.e. a standard procedure. If not, he can order such a form via the Tax Telephone Abroad.
If you still have questions of a more personal nature, please do not hesitate to contact me. You can do this via the e-mail form on my website:
http://www.lammertdehaan.heerenveennet.nl of
via email address [email protected]. This road is preferred.
Lammert de Haan, tax lawyer (specialized in international tax law and social insurance).
Dear Readers,
Isn't it an idea to discuss with all interested parties for tax exemption from the Heerlen office.
Submit a petition/application via/with an expert in the Netherlands for all Dutch citizens
Thailand.
I don't have the skills for that myself, only 8 years of primary school and a few years of evening education
GAWALO education (Plumber).
I am more than tired of Heerlen's arbitrariness with unilateral changes towards pensioners
residing abroad.
Can we share the costs with all applicants/stakeholders?
Kind regards,
Daan Roosingh, Thailand
Dear Daniel,
Actually, this isn't even such a bad thought. It is high time to denounce the abuse of power by the Foreign Office of the Tax and Customs Administration.
However, the participants in such an action must also really be an 'interested party', ie: they must also have actually been hindered by the unjustifiable demands made by the Foreign Office with regard to obtaining an exemption from withholding wage tax. Vague complaints of "hearsay" get you nowhere.
After bundling the complaints, a complaint can be submitted to the Foreign Office of the Tax and Customs Administration. You can only submit a complaint to the National Ombudsman if you receive an unsatisfactory answer.
I am quite willing to coordinate everything in the Netherlands: bundling complaints, writing a complaint to the Foreign Office and, if necessary, submitting a complaint to the National Ombudsman. To participate in this as an interested party, you can send your complaint to my email address (see an earlier message). Use the subject for your message: “Complaint Office Abroad”. Then such a message will not be buried in the countless emails I receive every day.
And the costs? Yes, we should definitely talk about that. Writing a letter of complaint can be done fairly quickly: set the costs at € 50 (incl. VAT). The number of participants is also 50.
I write out 50 declarations, enter them in the accounts and track the payments. I may also need to send a few reminders.
However, I think it would be wiser to refrain from this, don't you agree? Just kidding! Much more important is that action is taken against the lust for power of the Foreign Office of the Tax Authorities.
I have previously indicated in Thailandblog: with the Tax Plan 2003, the Wage Tax Act 1964 has been amended in such a way that the legal basis for the exemption form has been lost. The fact that inspectors still refer to the long-deprecated section of the law in the exemption decisions makes one think. Perhaps that office has a very slow internet connection or the carrier pigeon, which should have delivered this change notice, has died due to old age. But of course it could also be that he died because an overzealous amateur hunter has provided him with some extra lead. We'll probably never find out.