Duty of care, but for how long….
In the animal kingdom, the instincts are arranged in such a way that the parents take care of their young for a shorter or longer period of time. They suckle them, they feed them and in many cases they also teach them the intricacies and tricks of their particular species. For some animals, such as elephants and monkeys, this can take up to several years of training.
In humans, too, it is often customary for parents to take care of their children and for the children to disappear from under their mother's wings at a certain point and to continue their own way independently. However, this is not the case everywhere. In Thailand you run into too often that the reverse process will take place when the children become adults. It is then considered self-evident that the children will support their parents financially.
In one way or another, this is deeply imprinted in the children's norms and values at a young age. Later they feel it as a self-evident duty that they cannot avoid. You can see that times are changing somewhat and that by no means all children, especially if they are of the male gender, are still willing to give part of their income to their parents. In many cases, however, this still happens.
In the West, it is not uncommon for children to rebel against their parents when they reach puberty, which in some cases can even lead to permanent deterioration of relationships. What you rarely see, however, are parents holding their hands up to their children. Not even if those parents don't have it wide. For many elderly people, the last thing they want is to be a burden to their child. I remember that I doubted for a long time whether I wanted a child because I was not sure that I could handle the associated financial obligations. In Thailand it is the other way around. It is precisely when you are poor that you should have children, because they are a future source of income and therefore an attractive old-age provision.
Yes, but, I hear everyone say, Thailand is a poor country and it is good that the young take care of the elderly. After all, there is no pension system and there is. In practice, however, I have seen all too often that parents and especially mothers, completely empty their daughter. I don't know if it still exists, but in a more distant past children were even sold to factories that recruited them to work long hours for next to nothing. This was not always to be able to lead a meager existence, but often to pay for all kinds of luxuries such as cars, gold chains or a house to show off, not to mention things like paying off gambling debts or financing alcohol abuse.
It's all just subjective observation of course, but the image that comes to my mind is that in Thailand the love of the children for the parents is often greater than the love of the parents for the children. I never had the impression that parents suffered because their daughter earned her money more horizontally than vertically. Just put your hands in front of your eyes, don't talk about it, then nothing is wrong and the money tastes like more.
It's not that I don't understand the children who physically take care of their parents. I have seen a lady who worked as a hotel manager who quit her good job to take care of her sick mother and also a female dentist who closed her practice to help her disabled mother and I have many examples. This kind of sacrifice is very rare in the West and it is to the credit of the Thais that they do this, although some better facilities and insurance for the elderly would not hurt here either. However, this is different from financial exploitation of children by parents.
Now most readers of Thailand blog also know a bit about how the hares run in Thailand. I don't feel like I'm telling you anything new in that regard. What intrigues me, however, is the question of what exactly is the mechanism in upbringing that ensures that the majority of children will support their parents financially in the future, and especially how it is that they can hardly resist the sometimes quite aggressive pressure imposed by the parents. Many children go so far as to exchange their future prospects for quick money in the sex industry, but also in factories or even leaving for a foreign country where they do not like to meet the parents' financial desires, which are not always reasonable.
What I also wonder is how long this system will last and how will it fare for the transitional generation, the people who gambled on the support of their children, but who fall behind the net because those children no longer feel like it? All the more so because this generation often still lives in rural areas, which are rapidly depopulated and ageing, so that poverty can quickly set in.
Daughters who earn money more horizontally than vertically, quick money in the sex industry: nice prejudice-confirming! As if that is 'the norm' in Thailand……….. Yes, maybe in the eyes of the Pattaya goer/bar hanger – but that is of course a prejudice on my part.
Glad you mentioned this. Messages are regularly posted here by Pattaya goers as if this is normal Thailand and I think this also means that the more 'normal audience' is less active here. Of course, everyone must know for themselves what they are doing, but Pattaya is not the norm for normal life in Thailand. In any case, Thailand is a very divided country from poor Isaan to the luxury in parts of Bangkok.
Let's see what those loving Thai children think about that. There is endless discussion about this. Hundreds of postings. Opinions vary from 'you should do everything for your parents' to 'they don't get a cent from me'. Here too, there is no uniform Thai philosophy, although people want to convince the gullible farang that this is the case, and they often fool themselves.
A few examples from pantip.com:
More information ห็นแก่ตัวค่ะ!
Fathers and mothers who want their children to take care of them in their old age are selfish!
https://pantip.com/topic/37303727
Image caption ะเงิน. more
All my father and mother demand is money, money and more money. I'm fed up!
https://pantip.com/topic/34875700
More information งหมด
My mother is not satisfied if we don't give her our whole month's salary.
https://pantip.com/topic/36775923
There is also a lot of grumbling about how bad their parents are.
The official version is that all children love their parents, are very grateful (it's Mother's Day in two days!) and always want to support them.
The mechanism is very simple: if you don't support your parents, they will starve to death.
The fact that this mechanism has disappeared in the Netherlands is because the government has taken on the responsibility of the children through the introduction of the state pension.
Furthermore, the Thai are just real people.
Some take good care of their children, and some don't.
Some children support their parents, and some exploit their parents.
In the past, and not very much in the past, children did not exist for the Thai government.
They were owned by the parents, just like a buffalo, and you could sell them or give them away.
There was no compulsory education.
Only when they were I thought 15 years old did they come to life for the government.
In the Netherlands we have bought this off by paying all kinds of social security contributions (taxes). Our social insurance system should do that. Unfortunately, that is no longer sufficient to provide that care. And current politics is trying to achieve a mental change (informal care, home care) in order to bring this back to the family. Here again, unfortunately, without offering direct tax relief in return, because the government pots must remain filled. Thailand does have a pension system, but it is not enough to live on, so children need to be cared for to supplement this. Unfortunately, this leads to extremes in a number of situations. The pressure from the environment in particular has a very strong influence. Thais like to show off how well their children take care of them. And if they don't, the entire village will know and will let the visiting child know. Losing face is something no Thai wants to suffer so......
Thailand is an upper middle-income country, you can no longer call it a poor country or a developing country. And as may be known by now*, we see almost all countries moving towards 2-3 children per woman, escaping poverty and a longer life expectancy. With the greatly improved social situation, it is no longer necessary to have many children and to fall back on the children. Asia, among others, has already caught up with 'the west' and it seems very likely that Asia will take back that title of the world's engine block.
Thailand is also building social safety nets, although it is a strong capitalist country with the world's greatest inequality between rich and poor. So you can be sure that in Thailand too, it will be over in a few years with parents who fall back on their children. That social structure will inevitably change. The big challenge remains how to limit inequality within Thailand…
*look at Hans Rosling's presentation on development:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPtfx0C-34o
My wife comes from a family of 7 children.
Only 2 (including my wife) give money to mothers every month.
The other 5 want to, but can't, although I sometimes think everyone can spare 100 Thb per month.
The eldest sister does ensure that mothers are regularly picked up or accompanied to dinner, but she too is dependent on her daughter, who luckily has a slightly better job but also likes to send her own child to a "good" school .
Hospital visits, etc. are also arranged by the eldest sister.
We live 1.000 km away, so those are things we can't do that easily.
Even if something new has to be installed in the house (washing machine, TV, etc.), my youngest brother-in-law and my wife share the costs.
When we visit, the wardrobe is replenished, the supply of rice, etc.
All in all, mother-in-law is well pampered and cared for.
But I dare not judge the future.
We are fortunate that my cradle has been in NL and my wife has also lived and worked in NL for the necessary years, so if the jars are not empty in due course we will receive a good pension and state pension.
You suggest that the fact that adult children in Thailand are forced to care for their parents is a specific phenomenon.
Not so long ago, before in the early 50s in NL. the AOW was introduced, it was in the Netherlands and I don't think it's any different everywhere in Europe.
In Thailand, the moral obligation to take care of the parents usually lies with the eldest daughter. In return, he often inherits the parental home. Sons usually move to their wives' family and therefore feel relieved of the duty of care towards their own parents.
What if a Thai has no daughters (or any children at all)?; he must then hope that other family members will take care of him/her, or else ask for help from the temple.
In the Netherlands, parents have a legal obligation to take care (financially and deed) of the education of their children. What many people do not know is that until quite recently (well after the introduction of the state pension) in the Netherlands there was also a legal obligation for children to provide financial care for their parents. That obligation has been removed from the law. So the maintenance obligation towards the parents is not that strange.
The often heard argument is that the children did not ask to be born, but they forget that they owe their upbringing and education (and therefore prosperity) to their parents and, as far as I am concerned, there should be something in return.
When I started working more than 50 years ago, I also had to hand over my paycheck to my parents and they were not Thai.
I assume that you also lived with your parents at that time and that you received clothes and pocket money to eat there.
You simply had to pay your contribution to the household.
A number of young people still do this in Thailand, if they have a job.
Mother then manages the money and the young people receive room, board and pocket money.
And it is probably used to save for marriage.
I used to help pay for my parents' household at home. And I'm not very old yet (now 56). From my first salary I have always helped my parents voluntarily.
Not that my parents needed it, they had managed just fine all these years, but just because I gave it to them. my brothers also did this entirely on a voluntary basis.
Think if you use the word cost money nowadays that it equals swearing.
Dear Joop,
I also have the impression that in Thailand often the eldest daughter has a moral obligation to take care of the parents and then inherits the parental home.
And yes, with this social system you are well in the monkey house if you, as a needy person for one reason or another, do not have (anymore) children.
Indeed, in the Netherlands there was once a legal obligation for children to pay at least a quarter a week to their parents.
I strongly disagree with your last sentence.
I truly have not forgotten that my parents raised me and ensured that I received an education of choice and intelligence level. But I consider that their duty, arising from the fact that they brought me into the world.
In my opinion, it cannot be the case that after a child has been born, the parental obligations towards that child consist at most of providing food and drink. Responsibility for responsible adult education and appropriate education are also part of those obligations.
That responsibility ceases as soon as the child is assumed to be of legal capacity (age of majority). In the Netherlands and Belgium this is normally at the age of 18, in Thailand at the age of 20.
Only after the child has become legally competent can the parent demand or demand something in return for further help.
And I think it's crazy when a people who call themselves free or "The people of the free" at the same time consider their own children as personal property.
Furthermore, it seems to me a destruction of capital and not smart to, I assume, trade in well-paying work as a hotel manager or dentist for care for the parents.
PS:
In Thailand, children are still required by law to support their parents.
“Section 1563. Children are bound to maintain their parents.”
How this maintenance of parents should be given shape has not been elaborated, so it can be interpreted very broadly.
https://library.siam-legal.com/thai-law/civil-and-commercial-code-parent-child-section-1561-1584-1/
I am currently experiencing the complete opposite
my wife has given her son and daughter the opportunity to continue their education at the expense of her health, a lot of overtime at an elktronka company in BKK and now thanks to Alzheimer's (53 years old) without an income for a long time
Both have done nothing with that education, son is too lazy, daughter wanted to go out and of course became pregnant by a good-for-nothing who now makes her work and does nothing herself
Both children have now completely stolen my wife's reserves and we are now being harassed by creditors
even the police get involved
Fortunately, I have said from the beginning that I am not a family ATM
We now know that Section 1563 means nothing unless someone has good advice that can help us move forward
Hans
In Belgium it is still the case that, if the parents do not have enough financial resources to stay in a rest home/care center, the children are approached to make up for the shortage.
Ruudje
If only the parents provided an education.
As a child, my friend, like his siblings, was often beaten to the bone
After primary school they were not allowed to continue their studies, they had to work and
donate the income. Often not enough to eat despite his father earning good money as a blacksmith. Father dear has not against his son for 6 years
spoken when he decided to work and be in Bangkok at the age of 17
resume studies. After 6 years on his knees he asked his father for forgiveness
thawed it out a bit. Despite everything, my friend built a house for his parents
and sent money monthly. Everything is self-evident in the eyes of the parents.
Actually, the older sister, who has already received everything in her name, also belongs next to it
the parents live to take care of them. But she and her husband are too greedy for this despite them
good farming. I have often visited the family and it continues to amaze me.
My boyfriend really loves his parents, conversely that is a big question mark for me.
Bram, your statement is largely correct.
I now have 12 years of experience with my Thai in-laws, and indeed: “enough is never enough”!
My partner's sisters were sent to the factory at the age of 12, had to work double shifts there, had just enough money to live and eat in a room with the four of them. Furthermore, all the money had to go to the parents. Isan in particular is known for this.
My partner was still allowed to finish high school because he was the youngest son (with 4 older sisters). Despite pressure from the teacher, he was not allowed to continue studying. When he got his diploma he HAD to work too! And also all the money to the parents, now of 5 (!) children..
And that is still going on! Both his sisters and him.!
They have gigantic rice fields, a beautiful house, etc. But you never hear anything about the yield of the rice fields.
I often talked to him about it, but all those children have been completely brainwashed: mother has impressed them all their lives: “I carried and gave birth to you in my tummy for 9 months, and you will always have to be grateful to me for that!” That's also where the morbid veneration for their mothers comes from...
I too have seen my partner's friends and girlfriends give up their jobs here because a phone call from mom is enough to let them come home and take care of them…
Their whole own future and life to the klutz…
There are now many facilities for the elderly and needy. A detailed article about this was recently published on this block. Very educational! But if you bring that up, they don't know anything… Is just extra income…
My parents-in-law have “no money either” but mother has 50 lorries of sand come to raise the ground around their house. Suddenly she had money for that…
Even his childless aunt just asks my partner "when I'm old you'll take care of me!" And the answer is simply: YES! This is enforced by his mother, who has all the power and also executes it.
It is deeply sad to see that young people, in a relationship, don't even get the chance to build their own life and start a family...
They bleed their own children to help uncles and aunts as well.
An American once said to me: Thai women have no maternal feelings! And he's right!
How sad is that?
I have been able to teach my partner a lot in 12 years, he is more critical, but keeps paying. Even if they have just received the proceeds from 80.000 m2 of rice fields! Incredible!
Don't forget that the parents often live in the same house as the children. I find it very positive and I don't see it happening in the Netherlands yet. In the Netherlands, as an elderly person, you can sit alone at home…
Frits,
Do you think it is positive for the parents or for the children?
Personally, I find it positive when the children can go their own way in complete freedom and are not bound to take care of the parents.
In the Netherlands, no parent has to stay lonely at home, it seems to me.
Possibilities enough.
I can understand that parents who give their children a good upbringing are rewarded for this in Thailand. If, in this case, neither the father nor the mother have ever stepped out of the way – at most sent some money to the grandparents on an irregular basis – then I don't want to pay for that mother at all. She is 15 years younger than me and has been complaining for ten years, but work? Hey!
It is certainly a fact that not every child takes care of its parents in Thailand.
However, if this care was completely absent in Thailand, where other social assistance is scarcely available, much would no longer function.
A parent who has worked all his life for a Thai minimum wage, if he/she could save at all from this, will have to live at most on a meager savings and an extremely miserable state pension, which, depending on the age, is no longer as a amount somewhere between 6 and 800 Baht per month.
An expat who is already complaining with an AOW and a pension, and has also come to live here voluntarily, then complains despite a strong Baht, in comparison at a very high level.
My father-in-law left mother-in-law early, so she saw no other option to allow her 2 daughters to study by moving to Canada and working as a nanny.
The daughters stayed behind in the house that mothers had built together with a sister (2 under one roof, with a passage in the living room) and went to school, now both have a good job and mothers are now retired and continue to live in Canada because otherwise the pension will be lost.
She has to live there for at least 6 months a year otherwise she will lose it and I hear that many Thais live at an older age because they don't want to give up their pension.
But when mothers come to Thailand for 5 months, the children take care of her financially and she cooks and "cleans" the house.
She has enough time for that and then I hear her say that she is bored because watching TV all day is annoying. Now she is back to Canada and I see pictures of a trip with friends, it is also very nice to see in Canada.
Her daughters both have good jobs and are therefore not at home for more than 50 hours a week, mom can take care of herself and as long as that is the case she will stay in Canada, 24 hours to get to Thailand where she can cooking, cleaning and being bored.
Somewhere a pity, now I'm the spool, washing, ironing and cleaning, cooking now and then because at foodland it doesn't cost a turd.
I started sending a small amount to the mother a few months ago, because my wife was tired of getting calls from her mother every time at the end of the month because she had run out of money.
Last week, however, circumstances caused such a big quarrel (also because of money) between my wife, her sister and parents and I became involved (that farang should cough up more money), that we have cut off all contact with her family for the time being .
Not me for now, for me it's all over now. After ten years I am still seen as the farang and not my wife's husband or "Jack".
They saw me as a walking ATM machine and now realized that the machine was not working properly. The mother has already suggested a few times that my wife should look at someone else who could give more money.
My wife is then accused of loving me too much. She would rather say a man with little money and who is good to her than one with a lot of money and no good. Isn't it sweet, isn't it?
But we're doing well. Only I don't see that we should end up with much less, because the parents demand too much. In addition, my wife has two sisters and a brother and they all have a reasonable income (judging by their house and cars). I often told my wife that the four of them (or the three sisters, because the brother is a monk) put money together – 2000 Baht each and thus send the parents who do not need much 6000 Baht every month. The sisters didn't want to hear about it. My wife is the youngest and no one listens to her.
But now they get nothing.
They can walk to the pump for me.
I'm kinda angry. I know that the parents hardly receive a pension and are dependent on the children, but I will not be forced. And certainly not treated like an idiot.
I would like to respond to this. Have experienced the same. Give mother money at 10.00:XNUMX in the morning and it's gone in the afternoon. To which ??? Until, for example, honorary members' year, the costs for the family were actually borne by us. Even the divorce of a brother from my wife was on our account. And…. That brother was kind enough to double the agreed amount.
All in all, in the 12 years that we have lived in Asia, I think it has cost around EUR 400.000. You'll think I'm crazy. Now I do that myself now. Half of the family does not work. They are 4 adults and 3 children, but usually about 10 men eat with the pot.
Last year I stopped paying. I'm not paying anything anymore. So the ATM is locked. Have not visited the family for more than a year. They're just figuring it out!
Well, JanvanHedel, that sounds huge, if I calculate that on the counting machine, we will come a little closer to the earth.
Say 2750 Euros a month for twelve years still firmly and well above the Dutch average.
Apart from the monthly contribution to my partner, I informed the rest of the family at a very early stage that this was not an option.
Farang mai mie tang I always shared that crisis support is possible and limited, so the questions are minimal.
Married their mother and not the family.
Jan,
I think there are many who don't think you're crazy.
you will not be the only one who has lost the necessary euros.
I'm still fine with my 60.000 euros.
Many have sold their house in the Netherlands and their car.
A house in Thailand built for 60.000 euros.
Bought land to build the house on.
A house for the parents and for the brother or sister
Bought a car. Mopeds for the other family members.
In addition, education for the small children may also be paid for.
Add to that the 12 years of food and drink for the whole family and a few trips and you're gone 4 tons.
WE in the Netherlands also support our parents, but via an intermediate station: the Great Common Pot, also called the National Treasury, by paying for social security, from which the AOW is paid in turn. (along with care towered above all other state expenditures)
Yes, the differences between Europe and Asia are big and it will take another generation before that changes, but I do notice in the Netherlands, for example, that education is increasingly neglected. Mom and dad both at work, because 2 times a year on vacation, both have a car because the neighbors also have them and the kids go to school / daycare etc ……..
My experience is that many think we are all rich and want to use us as an ATM.
What you do or give doesn't matter because it is never enough.
The family starts making debts because the farang will pay it.
I also know that not everyone is like that, but these are also there and not too few.
Just talk about money, gold, motor, and houses and what do you get?
I am surprised by the statement in the article that says: In the West it is not unusual for children to rebel against their parents when they reach puberty...
Exactly as if Thai youth don't go through puberty. In any case, I have already seen and experienced some examples of it.
It is quite possible that it is assumed that children should assist their parents in their old age. But many young people are becoming less and less aware of this.
You say that many mothers have a habit of plucking their daughters completely bald. You certainly have a point there. They also did that here for a long time with (now) my wife. She was 37 years old when we got married and had been working since she was 18. She was never allowed to keep a Baht, had to clean the entire parental home, do the laundry and do the toilet during her only day off (on Sunday). She was obliged, as long as she was alone, to continue living at home.
After our marriage, she moved to Belgium and did not look back at her parents for years. Escaped the years of madness. We now live permanently in Thailand and in the beginning we had some complaints from her mother about money, but my wife expertly rejected that. Her aversion to her parents is great, very great.
The new youth are becoming smarter and take care of their own convenience and comfort. You put it very neatly with the term “transitional generation”. Is it the fault of the young that there is no decent social system to give the elderly a carefree 'old age'? I do not think so. The time of plucking daughters bald, pushing them into prostitution just for the money, denying them school and education so that they can go to work, ... those times may well come to an end. Many parents do not do anything and live at the expense of the children. Many choose to be poor and lazy, while things could be perfectly different. Enforcing pity, no, many young people are now bursting that bubble. And I can't blame them.
Dear Pete,
I recognize this story.
My wife experienced much the same thing. She has an older sister, who married young, leaving her alone in the parental home.
She was a simple factory worker. Working six days a week, a lot of overtime, night shifts, not a nice life. Handing over all her money every month, only a few cents for the most necessary things. Not a red cent in the bank. Her father had a simple job, her mother did not work.
She is eternally grateful that she got to know me. She also lived and worked in Belgium for many years. Saved a lot but never gave a cent to the parents again.
After my retirement we returned to Thailand. We built a nice house here and she still has a large amount of money in the bank. We keep this very quiet.
Her parents are anything but proud that she is doing well now. Constantly bragging about their other daughter. However, they have NOTHING. Apart from an old rattle cart, no house, no money, nothing at all. But it is taken seriously. We are viewed 'crookedly', we know the reason... we don't pay any money 😉 But that will be a concern for us.
Against all that kind of nonsense from parents towards their children, who later manage to escape from those grasping clutches, even by marrying a farang: don't live near the parents-in-law. Seek refuge elsewhere, because despite all the misery, children's loyalty to parents is often great, too great. Piet is right: in Isan it often happens that parents send their poets to Pattaya because there is money to be made there. No wonder those women choose a farang. And for searching farang it is easy to find a woman there. An article about the background of poverty and the harrowing stories that accompany it is often posted on this blog. So one can actually know better. I therefore do not understand @Kees's reaction when he says that he is seen as a walking ATM and that the family is indebted because there is a farang in the family. Never understood why people give in to that. There is only one remedy: stay away from the in-laws.
Well, duty of care, it can also be the other way around, in a negative sense.
I know a number of families where mother still works hard and the children live on her dime, especially those Thai boys, who are put first for years and are completely ruined.
On the phone all day, and not doing anything else.
Those mothers shouldn't complain, Roelof, they only have themselves to blame for the behavior of their beloved sons.
There is also a similar case here in the family. He has had complete freedom to study. Ultimately (after a number of years of doubling up) he became an engineer. Married last year and still lives at home with his wife.
Mother complains about her son's behavior (so he is my brother-in-law). He doesn't mind working outside. Father is old and worn out (as is mother) but still does all the jobs in and around the house. The poor man can barely stand on his legs. Mother makes sure there is food on the table, does the laundry and cleans the house.
Daughter-in-law makes sure that the refrigerator is always emptied at the most annoying times. She doesn't work herself because she is from Laos and still doesn't have a visa (so we don't know how she does that because she has been here for more than a year now).
They don't pay anything to their parents even though they are both retired. My wife is laughing her head off at the whole situation. When mother complains she simply says it is her own fault. Her beloved son was raised this way and she has to bear the consequences. I understand the gloating...
Parents who ask their child for money because they don't have it themselves. I think it's shameful to create a child without having the means to care for it. If you don't have money, you don't have a child. First make sure you have something to raise the child well and to give something to. There is no moral or legal obligation at all to make a child. Normally it is a free choice, which is in principle limited by your own property. Hence my saying: sex is ok. but no baby! In the fifties, I also had to hand over my paycheck to my parents in poverty and I had major disagreements about this and even fought with my father, which I have no regrets about. A child is at the beginning of his life and must be able to build his life and if the parents do not see this, they are not worthy of the name 'Parent' and this must be resisted. As far as Thailand is concerned: Western standards are better than Thai standards in this respect and I have said that there too, which was not appreciated, but that is of no use to me. Parents should care for and educate their child and prepare them well for their future life in society.