We have just moved into our own house with a household of 2. So we wondered if it makes sense to have solar panels. We are not large consumers ourselves, around 3-4 kilowatt hours per day, about 400 baht per month.
Based on this consumption, I have sketched a few scenarios for myself. All these scenarios are based on do-it-yourself design and installation by a certified electrician. You must have knowledge of the technique. If not, you are at the mercy of the specialist installation companies who charge extra margins for their services.
Scenarios:
1. [cheap inverter] The cheapest scenario is to compensate part of your consumption during the day.
You connect a 1000 watt grid-tie inverter [the device that converts your solar electricity into electricity in your socket] to 2 solar panels on the roof of your carport or shed. You plug the 220-volt yield cable from the inverter into a socket.
I see many youtubers doing this and some electricians here in Thailand also recommend this as a start up. Costs between 15-20.000 baht, if you do the installation in a safe way. However, it is completely illegal, because the inverter pumps the yield that you do not consume into the grid, without you having a feed-in tariff [FIT] contract with the MEA/PEA electricity company. Payback period at best 6-7 years. Should the MEA/PEA notice that you are returning electricity [because the meter reading is going back], they can charge this return as normal consumption.
2. [approved MEA/PEA inverter] A legal scenario is to install a MEA/PEA approved grid-tie inverter. This is equipped with a so-called zero energy export function. No electricity is supplied to the grid.
These inverters need more than 2 solar panels to run efficiently. The minimum DIY investment is around 50.000 baht. Thanks to these extra panels, your system produces more during the day than you actually use up. You can use this extra production by, for example, running the air conditioning during the day without fear of a higher energy bill. Payback period: more than 10 years. If the electricity grid fails, your solar panels are of no use to you either, because a grid tie inverter will no longer produce electricity in the event of a grid failure; this is for the safety of the employees who work on the network.
3. [hybrid inverter] This scenario ensures that you still have electricity if the electricity grid fails. You can change your system equipped with batteries to use stored solar electricity in the evening.
However, batteries are still expensive at the moment. You can therefore choose a so-called hybrid inverter, which can handle both with and without batteries. Then you are prepared for the future. Because the expectation is that due to the arrival of more electric cars, batteries will become cheaper. These hybrid inverters can supply your home appliances with electricity from solar panels, batteries and the grid.
In the event of a grid failure, the hybrid inverter does not have to be switched off either, because the yield cable is not connected to the grid. Without batteries, you still have power through your panels in the event of a power failure during the day. With batteries you are also supplied with power in the evening, provided of course there is sufficient capacity.
However, due to the greater complexity, these inverters are considerably more expensive [more than 30.000 baht]. However, you can get pretty good inverters from certain unknown brands around 20.000 baht. Investment is from 60.000 baht without batteries. Payback time is even longer than scenario 2. With batteries, the story is still very unfavorable at the moment.
Batteries currently last between 5-10 years. The same goes for inverters. In a colder climate, inverters and batteries last a little longer.
Conclusion:
As a small consumer in Thailand, it is not financially attractive to switch to solar panels. This is due to the lack of a favorable net metering policy as still applies in the Netherlands and the low rate for electricity.
However, there are other arguments for switching. Producing electricity in Thailand is accompanied by a lot of air pollution – namely by burning coal. Another argument could be more comfort – turning on the air conditioning during the day, or still having electricity in the house in the event of a power failure [scenario 3].
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If you do not have an electric car to charge, I think it is unnecessary in Thailand to install solar panels, 400 bath per month, how can you earn that back before they are worn out
Panels usually have a guaranteed lifespan of 25 years.
However, 6 of my panels hardly work anymore, are 15 years old, and were bought in NL. Claiming the warranty is not really possible…..
Arjen.
Option 1 is not only illegal, but also very dangerous. If a PA employee has to work on the electricity cables, the power is cut off. Depending on where you work, there is a possibility that you will send 220V into the pipeline from the other side. You don't want that on your conscience.
We asked ourselves the same question when building our house, but were given a helping hand by the PEA because it asked an absurd amount for the connection to the net. For a quarter of the price we now have a 4Kw off grid system, with 3 panels that feed an air conditioner apart from the inverter and batteries. This is because otherwise the batteries would be overloaded.
The batteries are indeed the weak point. Vulnerable, expensive and heavily polluting. With a subsequent replacement, hopefully the large lithium packs will have become more affordable. They are much more efficient and last longer.
Keep in mind that solar energy requires a much more active involvement in your power supply. Regularly check the system, batteries, if you have them, measure them, refill them, things like that. But we think that is actually an advantage. You think more about your consumption and how you can minimize it.
If you are already connected to the net, I always went for option 2.
I agree with you,
In the Netherlands, the payback period is 8 years based on 21 cents per KWH.
In Thailand the price is 7 cents per KWH, which means that the payback period is 3 X 8 = 24 years.
What you have forgotten is that solar panels have 20% less yield in a warm climate.
I have no idea what electricity will cost in 10 years.
Jan Willem
What you have forgotten is that solar panels have 20% less yield in a warm climate.
That is correct, but that can be partly solved by using a different solar panel mounting frame.
There are frames with water cooling.
The heated cooling water is used in a solar boiler system.
There are several solutions for cooling solar panels.
Through the back wall: https://www.op-oost.eu/Coolback-innovatieve-achterwand-voor-zonnepanelen
Ventilation and Air cooling: https://www.bouwwereld.nl/bouwkennis/duurzaamheid/hoger-rendement-door-ventilatie-onder-zonnepanelen/
Hybrid system:
https://www.zonnepanelen.net/hybride-zonnepanelen/
Cooling the inverter also seems to be good for efficiency.
https://www.renewable-energy-now.org/2011/05/koeling-voor-de-omvormer/
In the Netherlands/Belgium we have an average of 3/4 hours of sunshine per day, in Thailand, despite the loss due to the heat, that is about 5 hours per day.
It is a pity that people do not count that, and just think of the dark, inclement gray weather that we often have in our countries in connection with that 20% loss due to the heat
Those solar hours here are an official number used by the solar panel installers
The calculation you provide in connection with the payback period is therefore completely wrong
You can safely put the price here at 4 Baht per kW in the calculation, you will soon end up with a payback period of up to 7 years in Thailand
If it were 24 years as you specify , well I think no one but no one would install an installation .
It is also advisable to fully utilize your installation, by which I mean that your installation should not reduce your consumption to 0, if you still pay a little, you have the advantage that you need a smaller and therefore less expensive installation and you can use the electricity produced completely. utilized .
Excuse me? In Thailand the price is 7 cents per kWh? You're not done with that.
Have a bill in front of me here: 697 kWh, to be paid 3010,27 thb
With the current exchange rate, that amounts to 11,2 euro cents….is something different from 7.
In addition, the sun is free, on the south I can count on > 8 hours of sun.
I am currently working on a double Hybrid inverter of 2 x 5,5kWh plus 12 solar panels of 450 W and now have a battery pack of 48V 270 Ah, and I believe that this will save me almost a bill from PEA.
My average consumption is 480 kWh/month = 16 kWh/day
It seems to me that with an energy consumption of 3-4 KWh you do solar panels as a hobby, because it probably costs more than your energy bill would cost and those batteries and solar panels are also bad for the environment.
The only thing I sometimes think about is an emergency power supply, so that the light in the house stays on.
On the other hand, power cuts are so infrequent that I wonder if it's worth it.
I now have 2 portable sets of emergency lighting, each of which gives enough light to illuminate the room and read a book.
I'm still thinking about something with a small battery that can make 220 volts so that I can listen to music and keep the computer powered.
I don't know if something like this is for sale in Thailand.
Yes Ruud,
just look around lazada or shopee. You will then take a battery with a battery inverter of 12v at 90Ah, more than enough for your music and computer. If you are looking for something bigger, go to alibaba.
If you do lighting with 12 or 24V DC and feed your computer with 12V, you don't need the inverter. That's a bit better for the yield. (Nowadays DC-AC inverters have a much better efficiency than 10 years ago) A normal PC usually needs 12V, with 5V (DC) for some parts
If I were to install my entire system now, I would install a 24V DC network in the house with a converter at the users' locations to the required voltage on site. Maybe even 48V. Inverters that make 24V DC from 48V DC are also not that expensive anymore, and have very good returns.
To make the lighting 12 volts, I would have to adjust my entire electrical system.
Sockets and lighting are linked together and I have ceiling fans with lighting.
That sounds like a lot of work – and expense.
For a 24 Volt DC grid, you must first convert 220 Volt AC into 24 Volt DC, unless you get the power from, for example, solar panels.
But for 24 volts DC you will need considerably thicker wiring than for 220 volts AC.
Call it cables, instead of wiring.
It will not be easy to attach to the socket or to lay it in a cable duct.
Yes… unclear. from my side.
I have a 24V solar system, so I already have DC. So transforming up to reduce transmission is a solution. The converters are not expensive and have very high efficiencies. Now the construction of a double wiring system is indeed too expensive and complicated for me. But if I were to build a new house I would definitely install a DC grid.
A lot of equipment runs on DC, (TVs, computers, monitors, routers, Aceespoints, modems, phone chargers.)
It is very bad for the efficiency to first convert the DC to AC and then back to DC.
But as I said, I wasn't clear.
Arjen.
Nice overview.
In Thailand, the yield is about double that in the Netherlands. “Unfortunately” the price of electricity is about half of that in the Netherlands.
https://ec.europa.eu/jrc/en/pvgis gives the possible yield for approximately the entire world, including Thailand.
Theoretically, this is correct. Practically speaking, however, not. In Thailand, the average power of the sun on the earth's surface is about 990 Watt/M2. In NL about 440 Watt/M2. However. For each degree of temperature increase, the efficiency decreases by approximately 7%. I measure the temperature of my panels, and they easily reach 80 degrees Celsius.
My panels (In Thailand) are at an angle of 9 degrees, and perfectly facing south. The yield in the morning is about 40% higher than in the afternoon. In the morning the panels are still cold.
Arjen.
A pump with cold water circulation over the panels is not that bad, moreover they stay nice and clean.
I am considering doing this myself, during the construction on the roof of the carport.
Practically impossible.
Or you have to create a closed system where you add substances that stop limescale and algae growth. A closed system has to cool the water. Cooling takes a lot of energy.
An open system costs you an enormous amount of water, and within a week your panels are covered with a thick layer of algae. Even in the rainy season there is algae on my panels.
Furthermore, if someone else also says cooling is an energy-guzzling activity, which you can better refrain from for the return.
Arjen.
Hello Francois, thank you for your comment.
A small correction to your story. Every grid-tie inverter, even the cheaper ones, is designed and tested to switch off automatically when there is no voltage on the grid. E.g. in the situation you described that an employee is working on the network. So the inverter from scenario 1 is no more dangerous than from scenario 2.
The only difference is that in scenario 2 the inverter has been approved by the PEA/MEA. So I assume they have tested it extensively on the situation outlined.
What can be dangerous is if the installation is not done properly without safety measures such as good overcurrent/voltage/earth leakage protection.
Anyway, here's a question for the experts:
I have the impression that electricity prices in Thailand are a lot lower than in our home country.
Is it wise to invest in an (expensive) solar panel installation?
How long will it take before you have recovered your investment cost?
It strikes me that in Thailand you will find little or no solar panels among private individuals. I suppose that not only the cost of the investment plays a role, but also the time before you earn back your costs.
Until not so long ago, the panels in Thailand were subjected to extra loads.
Now they are affordable, e.g. a panel of 450W costs about 4500 thb.
With the 18 panels I have, I have an average yield of 600 kWh per month.
600 x 4,3 baht = 2580 baht.
With the purchase of 195.000 baht, the payback time is 75-76 months.
A little over 6 years.
Hello S,
This calculation is only realistic if you are allowed to use a net metering contract with PEA/MEA, where the refund rate is just as high as the consumption rate [which is not the case in Thailand] and your consumption is just as high as your panel yield.
If you are realistic, assume the savings in kWh/money per year that you have realized with your solar panels. If you have a grid-tie inverter and you also use your air conditioning in the evening, the savings are less than half of your consumption before you had solar panels. I think you end up with a payback period much longer than 10 years.
Eddy, as I wrote, and that's the reality, I earn/save what the panels bring in. Without panels, my bill would be, on average, 2580 baht higher.
So, over 6 years.
That is only the reality if you illegally return. That will go wrong someday. The assessment that you then receive, based on the moment that your consumption suddenly decreased enormously, is gigantic. Bad to advise that.
Arjen.
In Thailand, netting is done at 1/4 of the purchase price of your electricity. The conditions are difficult (ask permission in advance, DIY is prohibited)
In NL, 1:1 is netted. Very unfair and unrealistic.
Dear S. Would you give the specifications of this set. I'm also thinking about buying a set like this. The payback time is relative. I am also concerned that my wife will have low electricity costs in the distant future. The installation will last longer than my “installation”.
Taruud, 18 panels of 340wp. But they already have panels of 360 or 400 and cheaper.
The numbers you mention now are possible. But only if you return illegally. So you have an analog meter. (with a turntable, a so-called three-phase current meter). You will get very wet if the meter reader notices that the meter is turning very slowly, or even turning back.
“Everything goes well, until it goes wrong”
You are giving very tendentious, wrong and dangerous information.
Arjen.
Reading the responses like this, the best thing would be to buy a generator in case of power failure.
I have had such a generator for 8 years now. In the beginning (I live somewhere in the interior of Thailand) the thing was needed regularly, but in recent years less and less. There are still regular power outages, but they don't last more than half an hour and we can endure that without power. Only if the power goes out for a very long time: more than 24 hours then all of the refrigerated food is no longer usable for me.
Still I use the generator, still for a short time, just yesterday the power outage lasted too long for me and it feels safe with a running generator.
In the evening, also have power for the TV, which my Thai wife can't afford to miss!
I have bought deep cycle lead-acid batteries for years. Even with very limited use, the longest working set has lasted 4 years.
I have set up my system as a “Whole house” UPS.
My last set of batteries are LiFePo4 batteries. The battery pack is a third of the size. A quarter of the weight, and twice the power. I bought them myself directly in China. The price was comparable to deep cycle lead-acid batteries. However, now, after a year, I do not measure any decrease in power. That was different with the lead-acid batteries. In China you can buy LiFePo4 batteries with a high D value. However they are very expensive. For a solar system, especially if you want a high capacity, a high D value is not important at all. A very big advantage of LiFePo4 batteries is that they like to be almost completely discharged, or only partially charged. This in contrast to lead-acid batteries.
Arjen.
Generally correct information….
However, if you make sure that the power you put out is less than you'll ever use at its maximum, your meter will never go backwards. Whatever people do, switch off the inverter the day the meter reader comes.
Every grid-tied inverter has island protection, so they will not supply power if there is no voltage from the grid.
I've done it differently. When I run my own factory, I disconnect our house from the grid with a large relay. The PEA also visited us, because the meter was stationary, and we clearly had power consumers switched on. However, we are not doing anything illegal.
Storing electricity in your own batteries in combination with solar panels is very expensive and complicated. Also because you also want to use the generated electricity when the batteries are full, and charging therefore stops.
When my batteries are full, I switch to my own factory, but I have to leave my own factory before the batteries are empty, because the system is designed as an emergency power supply, in case the grid fails.
If you want to make an emergency power supply with batteries, but without solar panels, it is quite simple. If mains power is available, you can keep your batteries full. If the net has a Black or Brown-out, you will run on your own power.
Incidentally, a blackout does not destroy anything. From a brownout, almost anything with an engine quickly breaks down. But lighting also has a shorter lifespan.
After installing an AVR and my own UPS, I never had to replace a lamp again. Let alone the problems with having to restart WiFi, broken refrigerators, freezers and water pumps.
Arjen.
I had 10 solar panels installed in January. I have requested a price from 5 recognized companies. The cheapest cost 103,000 baht, including the government admission (this is mandatory in Thailand). In principle, those panels must be able to generate 3300 watts in good weather. But the maximum in the sun is 2600 watts. When it is cloudy it is less,
What strikes me is that there is no mention of a Tesla Wallpower installation in the comments. Here, as storage capacity, we only talk about batteries. Ordinary batteries require special care. To be good, they even need to be in a ventilated area. As Arjen points out here: their lifespan: 4 to 5 years and you can replace them all. Special batteries (eg traction batteries) last longer but are also twice as expensive. A solar panel can and will also break down or lose much of its capacity after a certain time, just like the peripheral equipment can give up its ghost…..
I myself have thought about working completely off grid with solar energy here in Thailand. Made the calculations. As you always have to do, with such calculations, assume WORST CASE. So don't forget about the peak times, because there are, to be charged at the peripherals. It is completely pointless to have an inverter that can handle 2kW continuously if you have peaks of 4kW, even if it is only for a short time. The inverter is then guaranteed to fail. When calculating, also take into account that you need at least double the power generation here compared to what you will consume: max 10h/d production, so 14h/d to work on storage. The peripheral equipment has also already consumed its power in order to work. At high temperatures, as is the case here, a much lower capacity. If you reach 60% of the capacity, you can already be very happy. And, if you have to force cool the panels, you also need energy for that and the yield you gain is negligible.
My conclusion was: with the current price of electricity here in Thailand: TOTALLY UNPROFITABLE, especially when I see here in certain comments: 400THB/m (which I also have reservations about in terms of electrical comfort) …. what is there to gain from that: NOTHING? Even a medium-sized consumer of, for example, 2500THB/m, 30.000THB/y comes with a very long payback period, if there is even one.
The project has been dropped here. Possibly, but no one knows, in the future if electricity prices were to rise drastically, eg double…..????
Traction batteries are now offered here and there in Thailand, but don't forget, this is all used material, and has been abolished by eoa service .... I will not invest money there again.
There are now enough Lipo4 batteries available for a reasonable price.
No, a solar cell installation may not be profitable, but as mentioned earlier, I also want to take into account my partner in case I am no longer there.
In principle, a powerwall is nothing more than making a battery pack yourself. Usually a powerwall is complete with charger, BMS and inverter.
As I see it, solar energy in Thailand is not profitable. Just replacing my batteries costs me more than I save. However, the value of when it's pitch dark all over our neighborhood, the PEA drives around with a truck with big floodlights to find where the fault is, and then we have light, can watch TV and everything just works is priceless.
That neighbors ask us how it is possible that we do have electricity.
After a repair, and returning from the grid, it usually fails again in 10 minutes. All refrigerators, air conditioners and water pumps have been out for a while. The grid comes back, and everything starts spinning again. In the beginning the voltage is very bad (sometimes below 150V for a long time)
When the grid comes back I will also continue to run on my own factory for 20 minutes. Only then do I switch to the grid. My AVR then ensures that I have a nice 225V.
If we have an unexpected blackout, I can run for 4-5 hours on my batteries. Usually a power failure lasts 2-3 hours. Once the power failure has been announced (network maintenance), we can continue for 48 hours.
Arjen
I've also been worrying about solar energy for a long time and had asked questions here on the blog in the past. Prices for the panels have come down, but I'm still not that far. I think it is too complicated to install a good facility that does not cost too much. Electricity is not that expensive in Thailand, even though I pay a higher rate than most.
I prefer large companies to use solar energy. I do have lamps that are charged by solar panels during the day. It won't be more.
Prefer a generator for the few emergency situations where the power goes out. And even those are never really necessary. The longest power outage we had lasted no more than two hours. That can still be done and the refrigerator will still be cool.
I also think that it is better for the environment if solar panels are not used individually. It also costs energy and raw materials to build and transport them. If you want to do something good for the environment in terms of energy, I think it's best to get it from a larger society. In the Netherlands we had green electricity after all…. maybe something like that will come to Thailand one day.
I have requested a quote in Hua Hin , see below
You would require a substantial system to cover 1200 kWh units per month.
I think a 3 phase system of 10 KWS would suit best, comprising of 22 panels and 1 10 KWS 3-phase inverter.
The price is 225,000 Baht inclusive of all materials and labour.
I pay an average of 5.000 Baht per month (air conditioners, pool pump, etc), so ROI or payback period will be 45 months – less than 4 years.
Seems very interesting, or am I overlooking something?
I also live in the vicinity of HH, and have requested 2 quotes from different suppliers.
I myself have a phase, but I did not feel comfortable with the offers, both were not happy that I realized my battery pack myself, under the guise that the inverter did not accept it.
In addition, about 20% storage was added to the inverters / solar panels and the battery packs that had to be purchased from them.
Eventually I started this myself, but it's quite a job, don't underestimate it.
In addition, due to advanced age I am no longer able to go up on the roof myself, also connecting to the mains requires sufficient knowledge.
When I look at Criticus' quote, there is not even any storage of any kind. They only speak of generating and transforming it into usable electricity, nothing else. For the abilities that are involved here: that he can safely double the price, he will be on the grid for 3/4 of the day. That he'll just triple his ROI and, in the end, he'll be left with nothing. See Arjen's comments….
Critics
You have no batteries in the quote and is the installation included?
AND because you don't have batteries and you do have air conditioning and other things that are used at night, you will have to switch to mains voltage again. Approx. 60% of your consumption takes place in the dark hours
For example, a tesla power wall of 5KW is 160,000 thb and then you also have 'free' power in the evening and it is generated during the day
Ergo for the power you use during the day, about 40%, but once you stick to 50%, a smaller installation will suffice, less costs and a different payback time…
But also look at how long you can use the equipment and then you will see that the payback period is not limited to the next 50-60 months, you will also earn back after that….
I read a lot here about solar energy with all its pros and cons.
But is there anyone here who also uses wind energy?
Or is this also not profitable in the long term.
Yes Khun Tak, that has also been thought about. I believe that Sjaak S once asked that question when he was looking for an alternative energy source. He has neatly put that plan away…. Just like with solar panels, if you want to work independently of the grid, everything falls or stands with the necessary storage capacity. Good storage costs a lot of money. I also have energy supply through wind energy, on a small basis, so for 1 house, studies and calculated. This is also not profitable in the long run. The problem there is that you already have to live in an environment where there is sufficient wind, for example by the sea. and even then….. Such a windmill does need a certain wind speed and you don't get that every day. So the storage capacity will have to be even bigger with solar panels because you have daylight every day.
What many people lose sight of are those batteries. They have a limited lifespan, usually 4-5 years and then you can replace them all. Maintenance of the installation: if you live in a dusty area, the panels must be cleaned regularly… something always breaks…. You have to factor all this into the payback period. With wind energy, such a turbine and the blades do not last forever, they are still mechanical parts….
With the current prices of electricity in Thailand, it is little or not profitable. This is also the reason why you see so few houses with alternative energy here. There are plenty of Thais who can afford that, but don't think that it's just the installation costs that make it so that you hardly see any.
When Lung Addie says,
Storage is everything.
Windmills are usually designed for a certain wind strength. With us it hardly blows, and when it blows it's a storm. Virtually impossible to choose a windmill for that.
Furthermore, the charging current produced by a wind turbine is very different from the charging current produced by solar panels. That means you need two different chargers. Those two chargers often cannot be used on one battery pack.
Arjen.
Dear Arjen,
I have read all your comments and must say: your arguments are all very correct. Many people 'think' that after installation the stocking is finished. But then it really just begins. The circumstances here in Thailand, and that is what matters to him after all, are completely different and cannot be compared to those in the Netherlands or Belgium. I am also competent enough to calculate, compile and implement such an installation myself and I did NOT do it. I had the opportunity to install a partial low-voltage grid in my home because I did the electricity myself. That is a good option because, as you say, many devices work on low voltage. That gives a large efficiency gain since transforming, and certainly double transforming, consumes a lot of energy. What you write about cooling: is also completely correct: tap water is not usable as it contains lime. After a certain time you can replace all solar panels as you already get lime deposits at 55C. So you will have to descale that water first. Using well water: two pumps needed, one to pump up the water and a pump to pump the water over the panels…..no drawing required…..algae formation…inevitable or you have to inject chlorine into the cooling water and they go destroying your panels….. all things that are not taken into account.
Such a wall power: the smallest costs about 8500Eu and you already need two for a proper installation.
If you really want to work here or grid: it is really not profitable, whatever is presented by the installers. The point is: if you want to do it, do it well and not half a solution that will later lead to a great disappointment, then it is too late
if as an emergency solution: for the few times and expensive that the power fails here, at least with us in Chumphon, one can better manage with a generator that entails much less problems and costs.