Reader submission: World payment with ING and hidden costs
On September 1st I received a message from ING entitled World payments improved.
This message contains the following information:
“ING is working on improving the World Payments product for you. We will introduce these improvements step by step. We will soon start with a 2 day faster processing and the introduction of a flat rate of 6 Euro for sending and receiving World Payments. We have also improved the screens, such as being able to make a World Payment from the standard transfer screen in Mijn ING. World Payments are not yet possible on the Mobile Banking App. Etc.”
The Mijn ING website states the following about costs for the SHARE option:
Costs World Payment. ING uses a fixed amount of 6 euros for sending and receiving World Payments. In addition to the costs of ING, the receiving bank charges costs:
- For assignments where you share the costs (SHA), the recipient pays this rate and is determined by the receiving bank. In addition, there is this information:
- Shared (SHA): for this you are charged a rate by ING and the recipient is charged by his bank. Additional costs may be charged by intermediaries.
The last sentence refers to possible additional costs. What is the case? Because I thought the price was on the low side and was not in proportion to the TT price, I held a chat session with ING. The amount that was on my debit was transferred, the 6 Euro for ING was stated separately. Inquiries at Bangkok Bank yielded other information, namely the amount I thought I had transferred was reduced by 15 Euro without further information.
The ING itself does not transfer Euros directly to Bangkok Bank, but this transaction goes through an intermediary called the Deutsche Bank.
For transfers using the SHARE option, the costs are as follows:
- ING 6 Euros
- Deutsche Bank 15 Euros
- Bangkok Bank 200 Thb (minimum amount in this case).
Nowhere during the transfer is there any mention of what the total costs are. I think this is improper behavior on the part of ING. I am a customer of this ING and I have nothing to do if ING arranges something else internally, let alone that I have to pay for extra costs. I have now sent a written complaint to ING Customer Service about this state of affairs. What is also special is that during a second chat session I was offered compensation for the extra costs of the Deutsche Bank. My extra costs related to 3 transfers, but it was ING's policy to only reimburse a maximum of 2, i.e. 30 Euro. Why then does ING do this?
In my humble opinion, they themselves recognize that something is not going well. Those who use the same option as me have at least been warned about this extra cost.
Submitted by Rob
Dear Rob, I had mentioned this before, but now it has become clearer due to your research. The German bank is indeed making money from the transaction. Let's say the left hand washes the right hand. No explanation was given. Then, as far as I'm concerned, the Bangkok bank is more honest, because they did give everything on a form so that it was clear what they charged and had received. Perhaps not the best word since integrity has no place in the banking world. But yes, we all know that by now. That will never be strived for because money rules. Incidentally, with option BEN, nothing is mentioned by ING with the debits other than the amount submitted for shipment. In total, 21 euros were concealed from their side and that is the 15 euros Deutsche bank and the 6 euros ING bank. If I use the years that I already use for shipping, then I end up with a considerable amount. I will send a letter requesting a refund. Don't always miss.
Hi Jacques,
I also read your piece but then transferred money. When I finally found out that Deutsche Bank withheld 15 Euro without those costs being mentioned anywhere, I had the choice of responding to your article or having something posted myself. I chose the latter because your info was no longer on page 1 and I thought it would be better for current events to post again. So I absolutely agree with you, I was looking for additional clarity, nothing more, nothing less.
Dear RNO I had already understood this and am happy with the additional information. It explains a lot. I had already mentioned last time that I was surprised that the shipment went over the Deutsche bank AG in Frankfurt and wondered whether there were no costs involved. So I had sent 2250 euros and only 2229 euros arrived on my Bangkok bank account to which the Thai bank of course applies its favorable exchange rate and deducts 200 baht fixed costs. I got all this in black and white. I immediately called the customer service of the ING bank and was told that the ING does not charge any costs for the BEN option (all costs for the recipient). The lady in question indicated to me that I had specified 2250 euros for shipping and they also sent that. When I spoke to her about the fact that the provisions of the ING bank for the world payment do charge costs, she said to me “why are you asking me this if you already know”???????????
I do not understand that people are placed there who are not capable of providing the correct information. I don't even want to say lying but just being ignorant and ignorant. I also asked her if the payment order went through a German bank and she was unable to answer that either. My three euro phone bill was just a waste of money and it certainly didn't solve my frustration.
I just think that the 15 euros that the German bank charges are also a fixed amount, just like the 6 euros that ING calculates but does not include as costs on my checking account. As you write, this can indeed be seen with the shared costs option. I had already abandoned that because I didn't want to see any more money deducted for this. Now it turns out that you lost this at all times. Yes, the bank is fine. We don't have to feel sorry for that. With dry eyes, however, for a simple transaction, spreading the wallet over the backs of the customer. This while Draghi plays nice weather as boss of the European bank and provides the banks with a lot of money that hardly costs anything. That's why we don't get anything for our saved money, you don't want to do that to the bank, right? If those German bank costs are not negated then I think that transfer wise is an option to use because every month I hand in 49 euros (on 2250 euros) on my pension, I don't wish that on the bank. That is not at all in proportion to the performance delivered.
Dear Rob, thank you for the clear explanation and this ING catch.
There is no transparency at all and the costs are skyrocketing in this way.
I also have an account with ING, but I leave world payments to Transferwise.
Then I know in advance what a transfer will really cost me.
That they want to compensate you says enough.
Incidentally, these are not all costs because the bank in Thailand also charges the amount according to their own lower exchange rate and you therefore also lose on that. For me this was 28 euros and an amount of 2229 euros and that includes the 200 baht. So with deduction of say 6 euros also about 22 euros extra deduction.
I'm going to do my next transfer in bahts and let the ING bank do this because they say this is cheaper than sending euros and having it exchanged by the Thai bank. Check if this is correct.
Dear Jacques, I am also curious, but you already knew that from my previous responses. Actually, I understand less and less of ING's way of doing things. Rob uses the 'SHA' option, so shared costs for sender and recipient, and you use the 'BEN' option, whereby the recipient would pay all costs. But both with Rob and with you, € 21,= (6 + 15) will be deducted from the amount to be transferred. The ING website states under the 'BEN' option that the beneficiary bears all costs, including costs incurred by ING. And then: ING deducts these costs from the amount that is transferred. That seems contradictory to me. The fact that the Thai Bangkok Bank also charges 200 baht is beyond that. I just looked at what you would receive on your Bangkok Bank if you transferred 2250 euros via Transferwise now. (2250 euros, because you had recently transferred that amount)
The exchange rate is 33,5287 Costs for 'Low cost transfer' € 15,38 and for 'Easy transfer' € 18,07. Guaranteed on the Bangkok Bank: Thb 74.947 and 74.855 respectively
There are no fees charged by the Bangkok Bank!
You may want to put it to the test yourself by, for example, transferring € 1125 via ING and € 1125 via Transferwise. Transferwise costs for this amount are € 8,45 for 'Low cost transfer' and € 9,79 for 'Easy transfer'. The exchange rate can change from minute to minute, but once you have given the order, the rate is fixed. Now I can imagine that you are hesitant to use Transferwise because you have no experience with it. Then try to transfer a relatively small amount first, for example € 50. Costs at Transferwise € 1,83 or 1,89. Nothing will be added to that, not even from your Thai bank. Creating an account is not difficult, online you need to upload and send a photo of your driver's license or passport. You can then download their app from the Apple store or Google play store to make transferring even easier. Just a suggestion Jacques, the most important thing is that you don't incur unnecessary costs and get the best exchange rate.
I do understand you Leo Th and appreciate your input. The point for me was always that I get my pension on the 23rd of the month and I have fixed costs in Thailand that I have to pay by the 24th at the latest. So I need to be sure that the monthly amount will be on my Bangkok bank account a maximum of one day later, before three o'clock in the afternoon. I almost always manage to do this with the ING bank. In the past this was not possible via Transferwise. I now read that this is now arranged within a day. I'm definitely going to try it sometime.
Okay Jacques, I get the dilemma. Last Saturday (12/10) I transferred an amount via Transferwise to the Bangkok Bank. On my app I can track the transaction and the amount would be credited to the Thai bank account tomorrow morning. So this time not arranged within one (working) day. I have experienced this before, also at ING in the past. There is no guarantee that the money will be in your account in Thailand within one day. Good luck!
Leo Th, you as an expert in Transferwise, can you tell me which options I should click on to send to Thailand as cheaply as possible and does this also affect the speed of sending. For example, I read that the shipping option defaults to medium cost and I now see that you indicate low cost and easy transfer as options. As I indicated earlier, the amount must be on it no later than a day later before three o'clock in the afternoon. Please advise on this and thank you in advance.
Jacques, expert is too much credit but I do have a lot of experience. Since January 2017 I have used Transferwise dozens of times. When sending euros to Thailand, you can choose from 3 options at Transferwise: Fast, Easy and Low Cost transfer. On the 'help' page of Transferwise you can see the differences between the options under the chapter 'Types of transfers for sending Eur'. In short, Fast transfer, the most expensive variant with payment from your credit card, would be the fastest to transfer your money to your Thai bank account. My experience is that using the cheaper Easy transfer is just as fast. Also on the 'help' page, under the chapter 'How long does a transfer take', an explanation is given about the speed of the transactions. In my comment above I wrote that on Saturday (12/10 at 18.19 pm) I had transferred an amount (option Low Cost used) to the Bangkok Bank that I expected to have been credited yesterday, Monday. There are no credits on weekends. But that was not the case, yesterday (14/10) was apparently a national holiday in Thailand (passing of king Bhumibol) and no transfers will take place even then. However, this morning at 02.40:2 am (Dutch time) I received an email from Transferwise that the money had been credited. After entering the amount, a transfer option is proposed on the Transferwise site or app and by clicking on the small arrow next to it you can change the option and see which (total) costs will be charged. After clicking 'continue', you will be asked who the beneficiary is and then the reason why you are transferring money. This is a mandatory question and when you click on it you will get a drop-down menu from which you tick one. Not important otherwise. You will eventually see the amount in Thb that will be credited to the beneficiary's account and the expected date. They almost always indicate one day later than the actual credit. In practice, usually by far the next working day at the latest, but I cannot guarantee that. Did not receive the money until the third working day on XNUMX occasions, for which I was compensated by the way because no costs were charged for the next transfer. Transfer to the Bangkok Bank seems to be the fastest. I understand that you definitely want to receive the transfer on your Thai bank account the next day, but I assume that ING is also facing the restrictions of not being able to transfer on weekends and public holidays. I can't inform you better, good luck.
Thank you Leo Th, for your explanation. I have also registered with TransferWise and am going to try it out. I have looked at it and indeed the explanation is clear and the credit card option is the fastest (1 day) and the two others take three days, but apparently as you indicate 2 days. I can live with that, because after years at my Thai bank SCB I managed to move my monthly payment back a week. Tribute, tribute. But why before that opposition is still not clear to me. So I got more days of air and with that the green light for using TransferWise.
Congratulations Jacques! But I didn't say that the Easy and Low Cost transfers take 3 days, that only happened to me 2 times. Partly depending on the time of issuing the payment order, it is usually also with these options on your account with your Thai bank the next working day, and the Bangkok Bank seems to be the fastest. Now that you've gotten some more air at SCB, I wouldn't choose the most expensive option, Fast transfer. Just transfer 50 euros, costs you almost nothing, and then you can immediately check whether you have entered your Thai bank details correctly. Best wishes!
PS: Wednesday 23/10 is apparently another 'off' day in Thailand, Chulalongkorn Day. Perhaps that also affects the speed with which the money is credited to a Thai bank account.
I always do it with ABN costs 9 euros and not a cent more
I would advise you to request a printout of the transaction from your Thai bank just like I did with the Bangkok bank. A world opened up for me after I had done this and gained insight. There are also extra costs that will be charged for you, you can count on that.
I always first calculate the amount I send in euros with the daily exchange rate and the day later if it is in my Thai account with the daily exchange rate of that day. The difference is the loss of money sent. If you do this you will also see how much it really costs you.
Hi Hans,
nice suggestion but maybe you see about the hope that ABN-AMRO has canceled the bank accounts of people who have been deregistered from the Netherlands and, for example, live permanently in Thailand. In fact, people who had an ABN-AMRO account and wanted to switch to an ING account had to personally go to the Netherlands. come to open an account with ING, experienced it myself from very close by (no not myself). ABN-AMRO did not cooperate at all: like, sort it out.
That's how I experienced it. I myself transferred money last week and compared the costs of ING and TransferWise in advance. My calculation showed that the ING was cheaper. But when the money was in my bank account it turned out not to be the case. Transferring money via ING costs more than TransferWise. So hidden costs are charged.
Dear Timo, the explanation given by Transferwise is clear and understandable. It explains why they are cheaper than the big banks. They do not work with other banks and are apparently everywhere. In fact, no money is sent by this company and it does not cross the border. The bank or branch of Transferwise in the relevant country simply transfers money to the foreign bank account after receiving the order.
Hi Timo,
thanks for the info about TransferWise, have now created an account and will try it out at the end of the month. As my story shows, I am not really happy with the adjustment by ING.
This explains a lot!!!
I transfer an amount to Thailand every month, via …… yes the ING
every time I am surprised how little Baht with for the euro receives
You should receive around 1/32 Baht for 33 Euro but it is usually 26/27
I thought idd only the 6 Euro costs and what for the local bank
ING yes almost all banks REAL WHITE COLLAR CRIMINALS!!!!
Communicated extensively in 2017 and 2018, in this case with Rabo, and initiated a procedure with KIFID. What was the case? In this case the option OUR, which you do not mention but it means that the transferor takes care of all costs and the deposited amount, US$, arrives in its entirety at the recipient. I transferred US$ to Vietnam and it went correctly. But I make a transfer in US$ to Cambodia and then all of a sudden more than 10% of the amount deposited disappeared. Complaining helped 1 time and Rabo compensated. Saying that I knew NOW that a different amount will arrive in Cambodia if the order was in the code OUR. After many subattends it emerged that another, American. bank is involved and it does charge costs. Something that couldn't be done. This led to my complaint to KIFID, which partly agreed with me and Rabo had to adjust the advice on the site. However, the example video on the site was never changed. I felt and feel pretty cheated by my own bank. Now I use western union. Get a code and can immediately get money, much cheaper, and I do that at the Bangkok Bank that falls short in terms of costs. Really incomprehensible.
Compare
https://transferwise.com/nl/send-money/send-money-to-thailand
Rob, your experience with ING is the same as what Jacques wrote on Thailandblog on 4/10. He also transferred € 21 less to his account at the Bangkok Bank.
In its report, ING refers to an improvement of the World Payment product and mentions the introduction of a fixed rate of €6. But it already cost 6 euros, that amount was calculated on top of the transferred sum and stated separately on your bank statement. So the only change seems to be that it is now deducted from the amount transferred and is effectively no longer visible. In addition, ING is not transparent about the costs of € 15 at Deutsche Bank. Have they hidden under the sentence that additional costs may be charged by intermediaries. That 'possibly' surprises me, doesn't that always happen? ING speaks of improvement, but I have my doubts about that.
Hi Leo Th,
fully agree with you, but in Jacques' article hidden costs of Deutsche Bank were not mentioned. For the sake of clarity, I have posted this information again, nothing more and nothing less.
That's right Rob, you made that clear. Incidentally, I am amazed that ING was prepared to reimburse you twice the costs of the Deutsche Bank at € 2.=. ING is definitely not transparent, see also my response to Jacques above. But I think ING is not the only bank that does not communicate clearly about the costs of a World Payment.
The improvement suggested by ING was faster processing of foreign payments. Many people think that it has also become cheaper, but ING has never said or written that.
Dear Will,
no, I absolutely did not assume that ING would become cheaper. Read my story again and especially what came through message on the phone. An amount of 6 Euro is mentioned there and I have been paying those costs for years. In case of improvement, ING relies on faster processing and I accepted that. My experience with ING was, for example, transferring on Tuesday and on Wednesday the amount was in my Thai bank account. Also assumed that nothing or not much would change for Thailand, but perhaps for those who live in other (world) countries.
Hi I just transferred €1000 to bkk bank through TransferWise. As far as I know it won't cost me more than €7,20 TransferWise. I did that lying on the beach in Jomtien with my cell phone
Dear Will, I just checked what a transfer via transferwise costs and when sending an amount of 2250 euros (exchange rate 33.52) I came to 75,433.35 baht according to my apps.
At transferwise it becomes 74,664.72 baht according to their data. A difference of 766.63 baht is 22 euros and 86 cents. If all this is true of course. At ING (+ Deutsche bank) and Bangkok bank together you lose more than double, because I also sent the same amount with the same rate the last time and then lost 49 euros and finally got 73,903.11 baht on my Bangkok bank account.
ING deliberately lies or misleads customers about the costs of payments (abroad), but also about cash withdrawals.
They say they charge a surcharge of 1,1% + € 2,25. Only on your bank statement do you (calculating back) arrive at a very bad rate (certainly not the rate they state on the statement). All this apart from the 220 baht, which you also pay (to the Thai bank). I always find it striking that the calculated exchange rates of ING are very bad and I cannot escape the impression that a large bank such as ING does not demand a better exchange rate. Or they cheat us and secretly calculate more than the promised 1,1%….
Never realized that when I transfer money from ING to Bangkok Bank, money disappears to an intermediary. Still, look at other options!
After 54 years, I said goodbye to ING at the beginning of this year: As a bank you have to remain decent. Shame!
ING is a commercial bank - like many large banks for that matter - that tries to recover the losses they experience from other players.
You should double check all offers in the business world.
Just use Transferwise - they work with clear rates - under cover of Deutsche Bank - after all, you deposit your money on Deutsche Bank for all Transferwise transactions.
Do some research and compare and you will come out better.
Good luck
Guy
I had exactly the same but with SNS bank. I only found out about this after I thought the receiver received a little too much. Thai bank called. It wasn't about that. When the SNS called and after some further questions, the monkey came out of the sleeve. The transaction went through a bank in England that also charges an amount. The SNS rate guide does not mention anything about this. I stated that I had been cheated by the SNS and that I would not accept this and would inform the AFM. Eventually I was called back and received compensation of ultimately € 90, because I had previously transferred money in this way.
They felt they were wrong otherwise they will not give compensation.
I now transfer money with transferwise.
Advantages?
– faster within 1 day the money is in the contra account
– much cheaper and a much better rate
– more transparent you can see which course is being used. What it costs you and what the other party gets
This also happens from RABO to BKK Bank.
With each of my transfers from RABO to the BKK Bank, somewhere 5-10 euros hangs on the bow, indeed at an intermediate bank, the Commerzbank in Frankfurt.
The full amount goes from RABO to the C-bank, which deducts a commission and then forwards the remainder to the BKK Bank, which then charges its own commission.
Still, ask the RABO how that works!
Coincidentally found when surfing, review pins, paying in the store of 4 NL banks: ABN AMRO, ING, RABO, SNS
EXCHANGE CURRENCY.NL
Thai bath (pay, pin, exchange)
https://wisselkoersvaluta.nl/baht-thailand.php
NB. These are calculations from May 2015.
@Rene Chiangmai
Tai baht is updated to date, I thought everything would be like this, the calculater follows the calculation for pins, the % might be outdated.
Eternal problem with websites that the dates are barely mentioned when last updated
Have been in contact with ING in NL for a long time by SMS. Twice they say: 'No costs may be charged by the intermediary bank.'
I get this link: https://www.ing.nl/particulier/betalen/buitenland/buitenland-betaling/wereldbetaling/index.html?fbclid=IwAR1FnTlEiwKb6yUoQK4WBZLWENTaquuQIDu8-IDFOh8JGouMRVgo4kVXWwo
I always transfer with BEN because the money goes from my left pocket to the right. So it doesn't matter how I pay. Except at OUR. With OUR, the Kasikorn calculates what comes in and credits it to my family account in TH without deduction of costs. The Kasikorn costs of 500 thb must be paid by ING and charged separately to me. ING uses a fixed amount per country for this, for TH it is 25 euros. 500 Thb is 15 euros, so a tenner remains for wages, just to name it, OR Kasikorn gets a tenner too many ......
I don't think ING is sufficiently open about its cost structure; what about AA, Rabo, SNS and all those others?
The ING not only collects with sending, but also when you withdraw money, they also charge a commission on the amount that the Thai bank calculates. For example, if you withdraw 15.000 Bath + 220 in costs for the bank, ING will calculate the commission on 15.220 Bath. Called ING about this and got the answer, we can't see on our papers what the extra costs are, so we charge commission on the entire amount. End of story.
The commission of a few percent on 220 Baht does not really seem like something to lose sleep over.
And they are probably right and they only receive a total amount from Thailand.
You could see those costs as a paid service of 220 Baht in Thailand, you withdraw 10.220 Baht and then pay 220 Baht costs and you are left with 10.000 Baht net.
After all the responses, here's my side of this story.
In my working life I have worked on various payment products for a number of Dutch and foreign banks, designed and implemented payment systems.
It surprises me every time that someone complains about costs incurred by a bank and therefore passed on to the customer.
The ING does not have an account with the Bangkok bank, for example, so there is only one way to get your money there: through a 1rd bank that has an account with both the Thai bank and the ING. And no, they don't do that for nothing.
In addition, I am surprised that people do not first inquire what costs there are at any bank to make a foreign payment. But complains once the transaction has been executed and fees have been charged.
And yes, a Thai bank will also charge you because they have to convert your Thai baht to € and get it from your ING account.
Anyway, I am now enjoying a wonderful pension, but I had to say this.
Hi John
hope you don't mind if i disagree with you? I have been transferring money from ING to my Thai bank since 2007, but only after September 1, 2019 will the Deutsche bank come into the picture and from that date the hidden costs of 15 euros will be calculated. No extra costs were charged for the "improvement" and transfer based on TT exchange rate was always correct. Why should I inquire about costs if the message from ING itself does not mention it and the costs were clear for more than 12 years? Upside down world according to me. To be clear, I was mainly concerned with the principle. Hidden costs are not allowed. And yes I know exactly what the Bangkok Bank charges for costs because I have of course checked that before transferring amounts. It is special weather to read in comments what one should do, etc. Really knows the ins and outs and am certainly not stupid. Why do the banks use internet banking nowadays? To reduce costs and let people do most of the work themselves. I am also familiar with this automation principle, but in a different industry.
@RNO Of course you can disagree with me! I just wanted to tell you what I thought about it and that's often not how others think about it.
I sometimes compare these banking problems with eating in a restaurant: why is a dish cheaper or more expensive somewhere else than somewhere else? Because there may be a supplier in between?
Or a major service for a car: also often hidden costs that were not communicated to us in advance.
In the end, banks are all about one thing: making money. As much as possible so that the top can receive their huge bonuses after good results.
Dear John,
As far as I am concerned, banks are allowed to charge costs and as much as they want, but the point is that they are not transparent or even more so do not mention costs in their conditions that they do charge. I blame that. A bank should state that with a foreign transfer, there is an intervention by a foreign bank that also charges costs to transfer the money to the receiving bank. I had a discussion about this with the SNS and in the end they ruled in my favor and in 2 years I was reimbursed for all costs charged by that intermediary bank. They don't do that because they like me so much, but because they know they're wrong. Incidentally, the conditions have still not been adjusted, but no problem because I no longer use them.
In short, of course banks are allowed to charge money, but be clear in your conditions, but banks seem tough.
Groet
Jer
Dear Ger, you are absolutely right. Good that you entered into the discussion and are ultimately satisfied. More people should do that!
I'm glad I got out and can now see everything from a distance. And read here what experiences people have with their bank these days.
Hi. Last Thursday I transferred 35000 bhat to a Thai account of my girlfriend via ING. I wanted to pay all costs myself. This came to 6+25 euros. The indicative rate of 33.4 was not the actual rate they used 32.9. I feel screwed.
Used Skrill today to transfer 100 euros for only 0 euros fee. Yes, completely free at a rate of 33.5. So from credit card to Thai bank account. You can also transfer from bank to bank, but this would take longer than 2 days.
What is Wisdom? I myself gave my girlfriend a Dutch pank card from my bank. She can then withdraw the money herself via the ATM and deposit it into her account. Or that exchange rate difference that makes up for 21 euros? I can arrange things myself via internet banking.
Anyone experience this too?
Addition: Money is immediately transferred to “her” account, so no waiting two days or longer.