Reader Submission: Respect
Sometimes thoughts arise in me about certain subjects. Take the subject of respect and where can you find this again, is something that regularly concerns me.
What is respect and why is it important in life to show and give. Is it a gene issue and do you find this in every person. Is it innate or learned, based on religion or passed on in education? Why does one person have this and the other does not. Van Dalen says this about it: showing respect through his behavior (…) as (expression of) a feeling of esteem or appreciation. It also means: polite treatment or respect, sparing. Reverence means: feeling of admiration for the majority, especially in the spiritual or moral field.
Many questions about this, to which I don't have an answer and where everyone should ask themselves whether they have this and find it important and also propagate it. For me this is an essential part of my life. I give respect to many and expect the same in return. In practice I see disrespect among the necessary people towards the fellow man and apparently they are not bothered.
The disrespect and where do we find this so often. Among other things in traffic, in direct contact with each other, such as in relationships. If you dive deeper into it, we all know how to name examples.
Take the sex industry, for this is a common topic on this blog and humanity eagerly takes advantage of it. Reactions from many show that people think this is a great phenomenon. How respectfully people treat each other there. Does the sex take place by adults, is it by mutual consent, is it done lovingly, are there no forms of coercion or psychological influence? Is the offense punishable or not? Is it done for money or out of a sexual need or possibly a disease? A certain group on this blog thinks that there is nothing wrong with the way things are, because they are like that themselves and treat the prostitutes with respect, according to their own words. Again many questions, on which everyone may or perhaps should form an opinion.
I don't know these people and maybe they are partly right. I think that this should certainly not be taken lightly, for several reasons. Do you know that women, men and children are still being sexually used and/or raped, even in places where it is not expected and by people who claim to be ignorant. Is this a form of normal prostitution? Not according to my knowledge. There is still a lot wrong with the sex industry and that is why it should be fought rather than glorified by some. In any case, a much less prostitution policy is in order. A life without prostitutes is also very possible in my opinion. Relationships can be entered into in many ways, paid sex is not necessary, stronger in my opinion and in view of all those known abuses very undesirable or there are other arguments that make more sense. I like to hear them. I haven't been short of anything in the relationship field for a day and if I can do it, someone else can do it too.
Driving through the Pattaya beach area, with the many bars and Walking street as the highlight, we often see a lot of hustle and bustle. Superficially it seems that everyone is having a good time and joy radiates from many faces. With the exception of some of course, too drunk, not happy and unhealthy or without money. Barely able to sit on the stool. Just tell me what the reason is. Or are there other motives? Are people there professionally or is it a form of typical social behavior that takes place there. What actually happens and can a person do without this kind of behavior and places and often excesses? Is life possible instead of or without prostitution?
Of course, and certainly in the bars, a lot of alcohol is consumed. For many, the fun without alcohol is apparently hard to find. They need this to get into a certain daze, I understand from conversations about it. An incomprehensible approach to me, because this is just as easily accessible with an alcohol-free snack. It's more in the mind is my feeling. Man and his weaknesses. They are displayed there and seen by many as merriment all over. It is well known that alcohol is poison for the body and that people are not built for it. Excess is therefore harmful, but cannot grumble for many. The beer bellies are the result of this. With the exception of some sick people, so I don't include them, that's bad enough. You only live once anyway. Respect for one's own body is hard to find. Would this already be a sign on the wall for more, such as a certain amount of disrespect towards others if you can't muster it for yourself already. I'll leave it as fodder for psychologists, but think of it as my own.
In addition to all that (made) cheerfulness, there is also a lot of misery. Apart from what people do to their bodies with all that excessive alcohol consumption and smoking (look at the high percentage of people with high blood pressure and high cholesterol levels, often due to that) there is also sex that is not acceptable, in the form of prostitution. So paid sex. Still banned by law in Thailand, but we all know how it is handled. Pretty sad mess if you ask me. Many people make big money with it, including corrupt Thai government officials. It doesn't stop the sex tourist from staying away. Disrespectful to the Thai population, which broadly supports this law. Yes people there are.
Recently I read someone's statement, “what doesn't know what doesn't hurt in a partner relationship”, when it was mentioned whether you tell your partner if you cheat. If this isn't some form of disrespect then I don't know what is. It would be in a person's genes to cheat and it has been that way since time immemorial. Women have been used since ancient times and some allow themselves to be used. Do we still want this in 2018? Have we not become wiser by now? Then you'd think we should all get involved, right? What a nasty character trait and then I express myself very moderately, is what I want to say about it.
The temptations and not being able to withstand this is also an important factor. So-called friends who, in a drunken stupor, have sex with a friend's (also drunk) wife and later say that they thought it was their own girlfriend or wife. Being disrespectful again or is this another normal human action. I'm sure you can also give examples of this. Often disrespectful by direct and indirect users. Is there any idea among the users of the sex workers how many women and men are abused every day? Reports are regularly proclaimed in the news media on this subject, but does this also reach people in general? Does the target group want to listen to this and what do they think of it now? Do they ever read books on this subject, or has all this fallen on deaf ears?
There is money to be made and people are looking for sexual satisfaction, so much has to give way and a lot is overlooked or interpreted differently. You have to feel good about yourself though. Especially because sex is very cheap in Thailand, accessible (because it can be found in many places and prostitutes in abundance) and poverty remains trump card, it is common practice in Thailand to serve the ladies and gentlemen involved in their needs. It's an Eldorado here for that matter. Beautiful all those bars and that beautiful light and that wonderful music and those fun games that you can play there. A pleasure to see and do anyway. Needless to say I don't like any of this. We therefore see a considerable group of tourists who spend their entire vacation in the bars and are only concerned with their own convenience. What else do you have your (holiday) money for, I hear them say or think. And they take another.
Apart from the fact that there are many sex workers who have started this work due to poverty and/or family influence, so actually psychological coercion, there are a number of prostitutes who are roughly forced to do so. At a later age, as a result of years of pretending it is a normal job, there are a number of (former) prostitutes who are left with a trauma and need help to deal with it. To the outside world it is then denied that they have done this work out of shame. The various forms of exploitation can be seen there for those who are open to it. Certainly the foreign prostitutes often have pimp friends. Their families in the home countries, held hostage as collateral under threat. Too afraid to open your mouth and resist.
We still know the examples of Russian prostitutes who were found murdered on the beach of Pattaya years ago. Yet those ladies are used by the necessary customers. They are there for a reason anyway. Business is booming, the English would say. Do the users never notice anything or do they not find this important, the big self comes first. Believe what they want to believe but too blind to see the reality. I do know that there are also many prostitutes and certainly in Thailand who have been doing this job for a while and they are very good at seduction and you would believe that it is all free will and that is why people do not feel addressed and many people are thing. This also makes discussing this subject so double in approach and interpretation. Still, I think the majority of this group also plays theater and is damn good at it.
The fact that there are many venereal diseases to be regretted in this profession should be considered known to everyone, so it is also not good for your health to get involved with it. Especially if you still have a partner who is ignorant of the sex holidays and extramarital relationships. The fact that this behavior also attracts or induces other forms of crime is also not a plus.
Then there is the group of prostitutes who, in addition to paid sex, lead another life, namely with a (Thai) partner who is supposed to love them and with whom they share joys and sorrows. Everyone needs love and attention, we don't differ in that. Exceptions. In Thailand I know a few who let their wives do the sex work, because they also benefit financially. Actual on a kind of disguised pimp basis, but without coarse coercion etc. They can also drive a nice car, just to name a few. What a mentality, incomprehensible to me. However, there are also prostitutes whose boyfriend or girlfriend does not know that they do this work. If they find out this is the case, it could be wrong. Often the roads then separate, but sometimes love crimes take place and then everything in between, which can also cause a lot of hassle. Sometimes measured in the newspaper and read for everyone. Often we don't hear about it, but that it takes place regularly is a certainty. In my opinion, respect is also hard to find in these kinds of relationships. People just do what they do and the consequences are apparently not concerned with that.
Do you know people who put human values above their own pleasure values and live by them? I do. Is it only a small minority of humanity that values this kind of respect and has people therefore already sunk so far that asking the question is dismissed as nonsense. Why are you still doing that. You would almost think so if you walk around there and hang out at those many bars and observe the behavior there. A form of social degradation and little moral awareness in my view. Or is it just me, am I exaggerated in my view on this subject, perhaps old-fashioned and have to adapt to that large group. Have more understanding because not everyone is the same. In my working life I have largely occupied myself with the various forms of this decay and now in my old age and I have time to spare, I see even more clearly what is alive and playing and that does not make me feel good. Books full of abuses in the sex world have been written. Man cannot say with dry eyes that he is ignorant of the many evils that take place every day. It is not for nothing that you should exercise caution when visiting the brothels and bars in, for example, Soi Cowboy in Bangkok. Of course this is my problem, many will say, because the sex work must continue and is a high priority. This should not be challenged or badly spoken or written about. We all know why this is so highly regarded by the target users and I disagree.
So dear people who concern this, show a little more respect as far as I'm concerned and think before you start. Go find another hobby would be my proposal, one that has a less negative effect on society. There are plenty of choices for that. Also healthy activities and things that you can grow from in the full breadth. A person is never too old to learn. Break this spiral and contribute to a better Thailand.
And then just this, my philosophy is not inspired by faith. I am atheist and averse to religion. So for those who are expressing their opinion and thinking that I am proclaiming a belief as a guideline, this has already been dispelled. In my opinion, there is a lot of truth in the 10 commandments. Also an interesting topic, by the way, but maybe for another time.
I hope there will be a lively discussion that will make people think and I'll be happy to trade my opinion for a better one if you can convince me of the pros versus cons I've listed in my piece.
Best wishes and much wisdom.
Submitted by Jacques
good story, nice and short
Respect has different sides
First, you have to see the difference in culture and way of life in a country like Thailand.
The Netherlands is a welfare state where the elderly have aow11.
If you split up and have children, you will receive alimony
Child benefit, day care and benefit for when you have no work)
Thailand has a state pension from 600 baht = 15 eur per month rising to 90 eur per month for 90 year olds.
Children, especially the girls, take care of the parents and grandparents and the children who grow up with the grandparents.
Why do thai/asian girls have children so young because of the culture that the children take care of you later so a. Hidden old age provision because if you don't have children you will have a problem later when you are older
Why don't people work at the bank, hospital, etc. You need training for this, which is usually not available.
In addition, the salary, tesco bigc homepro, macro, construction, road and hydraulic engineering etc etc. max 15000 to 20.000 baht per month.
In the many car/assembly factories from bkk to rayong, the salary can be as high as 30.000 p a month and an end-of-year bonus of 100.000 baht.
A bargirl aged 18 to 35 has an average of 15000 to 30.000 baht per month.
A lady in the many nuru massages and spa etc in bangkok,
Massage with bath etc income can easily reach 150.000 baht and more.
Also, 90% of the poor Asian ladies look forward to a Western life partner who can support her and her family.
Making it clear that thailand and all surrounding countries the RESPECT is based on the money you have in the bank and especially what you can show in the village / city where you come from e.g. big house for you and with some luck for you parents big car toyota fortuner, or mitsubitsi pajero and the necessary gold of course.
This is just a short description of the other side of your story jaques only this story is based on facts from me with his thai wife who has 30 years of experience with and lives in thai society between only thai fellow people from songkla, phuket, huahin ,bangkok,chonburi,pattaya.,nonkhai,chiangmai,etc.etc
Whence this argument, since I run. get a little tired of the so-called people who think in a Western eye and point of view
Of course coercion and abuses cannot be justified and must be dealt with harshly.
I myself have tried dozens of times to help dr bar and massage ladies with a good normal job for 15000 baht free apartment or room. In the room with shower, toilet and cooking facilities, there was always interest, but after a month they were back in the bar, massage etc due to lack of fun with the girls / lack of freedom, no advance on sponsor or marriage candidate who takes care of family and of course too little income
So far my argument currently I am staying in chonburi. If you would like to contact us, you are more than welcome for a cup of coffee.
Is this an Apostolic Letter from the Pope?
Thank you Jacques for this exceptionally well written and clear story, I hope that there will be a lot of reactions and that people will indeed think. What struck me in your story is “In my opinion, a life without prostitutes is also very possible.” You can doubt that, because it is not for nothing that it is the oldest profession in the world. In many areas I think similar to what you write above. With the difference that I interpret the word respect differently, not in definition but in application. I think you should show respect to all your fellow human beings, the neighbours, the baker on the corner, the prostitute, etcetera. Every human being deserves that respect, regardless of his choice of profession, status or level of service. But moreover, for me, sparing someone's feelings is also a form of respect. If a prostitute has trouble with her job, I wouldn't go there again. If someone has a problem with visiting prostitutes, I wouldn't tell them. Honesty doesn't always pay off when it comes at the expense of someone's feelings. In addition, there are a lot of hidden cases of prostitution. Sex always costs something, be it money, emotion or some other investment. Just like you have to invest in a relationship to keep it going. Many relationships are disguised or not, based on fair trade. So in a sense one person prostitutes himself at the expense or benefit of the other who gets something in return. In our western world we can often understand these feelings mutually. In another world like Thailand, we don't understand. But when you talk to Thai, many ladies are dissatisfied with their Thai partner and therefore try to build up security in a different way. Perhaps on quicksand.
Finally, I appreciate your effort to make people think and make the world a better place. Cheers!
Jacques? Jacques! You do know that prostitution is the oldest profession in the world, right? And those girls do it all of their own free will to support their family. And the customers have sex with them out of a sense of pity. Prostitution, I say, is a form of charity.
It also helps to improve the meager salaries of the police and military. It's good for everyone involved!
Of course there are some mistakes here and there. But you have them everywhere.
Yes, but written a bit shorter!
It was about respect, by the way!
A wonderful article.
My vision: respect must be earned (delivered). I used to want to respect everyone out of habit, but there is usually no reason for that (unfortunately).
With sex (the act) there is no question of respect, especially if means are used to get into a stupor (alcohol and heavier substances). It is only necessary for passing on life…. it is (let's be honest) actually mainly self-gratification and I don't see anything that indicates respect for oneself or others. So that is not the issue.
I'm afraid few know the feeling that comes with respecting others. Simply because the average person mainly pursues self-interest and that is not something that deserves respect.
But you can think differently because you have the freedom to think what you like.
If I understand it all correctly, is it an indictment against the people who find pleasure in the pleasures of life?
Some people value quality of life over quantity and such a choice can also be respectful.
In 2018, the youth still go wild during their summer holidays in Spain, among others, where they indirectly pay for sex through drinks. The elderly travel a bit before it to put the flowers outside. Both are seen by you as disrespectful, but is that the case?
Obviously forced prostitution is something that should be banned. It may also be known that in Thailand, for example, there is also a sex industry for the Thai in the form of bathhouses or monkey-ob-nuat with dozens of girls in a fish glass.
The unprecedented enthusiasm to work there is motivated more by money than by coercion, which means that the question may also be whether the girls themselves find the work respectful and if so, who is someone else to judge?
Pollution of water and air, use of proven dangerous pesticides, excessive sugar and salt in packaged food I find many times more a lack of respect for humanity as a whole.
And Jacques enjoyed a bit more in Pattaya
Nice photos by the way
Forced sex is not good under any circumstances, both in the sex industry and within marriage.
Sex with minors under no circumstances, not even with consent.
Furthermore, sex with mutual consent is nothing wrong with it.
“Relationships can be entered into in many ways, paid sex is not necessary, stronger in my view and in view of all those known abuses very undesirable or there are other arguments that make more sense. I like to hear them. I haven't been short of anything in the relationship area for a day and if I can do it, someone else can do it too."
The fact that you have never been short of anything may be because you:
— you're a terribly handsome man who falls into a pig for everyone
you are rich or at least in appearance by an expensive car house or clothes. (I have never seen an ugly woman in an expensive open sports car. Would that be true love?)
– you have no sexual needs, you could go straight into the monastery (now they could do some of that too, and not paid yet)
– Fortunately, sex is also paid, otherwise I think rape and assault would occur much more than they do now.
Further comment
After a few paragraphs I suspected that Jacques might be the author. Glad my gauges are still working. Dear Jacques, it seems you have written a piece straight from the heart and I can go a long way with you. I continue to find it surprising - and sometimes just deeply sad - that too many people don't have the will or the skill to put themselves in someone else's shoes. A mentality in which there is no eye for what your actions mean to others. This while the question is so simple: if I were in her/his shoes, what would I probably experience? Of course, a wide range of answers is possible, which automatically means not to judge too quickly and to always be prepared to adjust conclusions, insights and assumptions.
I honestly admit that in my twenties I have also used paid services in Thailand. But for several reasons I soon couldn't do that anymore. Talked to the few ladies about their lives and when that came out it wasn't fun: left school, had a child early, friend ran away. It was clearly not for pleasure that people did this profession (although those ladies and gentlemen are there too and if you make your hobby your job: fine). When I asked them what it's like to go to bed with half to very elderly guys, the response varied from 'that doesn't matter' or 'it's work'. While there was no response of disgust, it was equally clear no response expressing pleasure 'great to have sex with old men! Delicious'. The few times I've taken a lady for a night, the sex wasn't your thing either, it lacked passion as a good lovemaking should be. The technique may be so good, but that is still too much one-way traffic without sparks. The ladies were nice, but they mostly tried to please me. I tried to please them too but they weren't really used to that, that's how I got the idea. And messing around with contraceptives is also a minus point, with a regular sex partner you can at least enjoy each other in all kinds of ways without any worries. Yes, then I quickly came to the conclusion: nice ladies, but it is work and not something one does out of enthusiasm. So it certainly didn't give me a feeling of satisfaction, rather a feeling of 'girl right, I hope with you for a better life'.
I also confess that at pieces about the bar ladies (prostitutes) the first thing I think is 'no hey, not again'. Although I do read everything. If only to test my own vision or try to understand other people with different views, possibly pick up something from it myself. The stories of some authors are really not my thing, although I do enjoy reading them. For example, the pieces of Frans Amsterdam. It really doesn't seem like much to me to cover 100 meters between bedroom and bar stool and every now and then to share the bed with a prostitute. If you would put me on a bar stool in Pattaya now, I would be very sad. But I also notice that someone like Frans means well, shows respect even though such a lifestyle/holiday is definitely not mine. So I thank the writers and editors for the exchange of experiences. In this way I also gained more insight without seeing all Pattaya and Patpong goers as dirty, sad, selfish helpers (fill in the blanks yourself).
So you won't find me in the streets with neon lights or hotels with sliding curtains and mirrors. It gives me pain in my stomach. For my entertainment I go to museums, bookshops, landmarks with beautiful nature, culture or architecture and that's what I prefer to talk about. If possible with facts and figures. But others will see that as a bit sad: what idiot will study texts and pump his head full of facts if you can fill yourself up under a coconut tree a few kilometers away? Everyone's thing.
I wish everyone lots of love, understanding and respect. And preferably some knowledge. And he who is without sin cast the first stone.
I already had the suspicion that this article was written by Jacques at the 1st paragraph. But that is of no further importance. The term respect is especially used inappropriately nowadays. Most demand respect for themselves while they cannot muster it for others or even come close to understanding what respect really means. In my working life I have come into contact with many people of all backgrounds, from poor wretches to high-ranking people, such as a minister and leaders of large listed companies. With some regularity I have had to be almost disgusted by the behavior, often also under the influence of alcohol or drugs, of precisely this last category. And as the years go by, I discover that unfortunately I can no longer have an ounce of respect for more and more people. I do have that for rescue workers, for example, who often work completely selflessly and at the risk of their own lives, as is the case with the football team in Thailand, to help others. Or for some athletes, and not those spoiled and overpaid professional footballers, who would do anything to excel in their sport. And certainly also for victims of accidents, who go to great lengths to recover. But, although not at all comparable to the above examples, for example also for many sex workers in Thailand or anywhere in the world, who are often stigmatized and in most cases treated with disrespect.
Well written, something to think about. But most people only come here for one thing. And you don't have to come here for a good conversation. Moral of the story: treat people with respect, and not just in Thailand.
Are you from another planet?
Your account sounds a bit like a preacher's sermon. Especially finger pointing. I don't know you, but you don't strike me as the pacesetter at a party. Denouncing everything that does not fit into the Calvinist way of life, alcohol and paid sex…. There is hardly anything more filthy and reprehensible, right? In addition, unfortunately I don't read much humor and self-mockery.
Of course I agree with you that coercion and abuses must be combated. But other than warning about hell and damnation, I miss solutions in your story. If you are so against prostitution, shall we send the women who want to get out to your home address? Then you can give them food and shelter and also the families that support them. Or would you prefer those women to work in the construction industry for a pittance and carry bricks? Or working long hours in a factory under poor working conditions.
Furthermore, I think, and many so-called 'social' people suffer from this, they prefer to label everyone as a victim. Victimizing someone who is not a victim, because he/she chooses to work in a bar, is just as bad as abusing them. You are depriving the barmaids of any form of self-respect. You say: you are pathetic and you need help. Who wants to hear something like that? The ladies are not taken for granted by these so-called benefactors and aid workers.
Many of the barmaids are powerful personalities who know very well what they want and don't want. Some save the money from bar work to start their own business.
In short, an accusation against prostitution without coming up with realistic concrete solutions is like complaining about the weather.
I also know from my own experience that several women (girls) are bored in their village in I-saan and like to go to the liveliness of the bar to talk with friends. Now also when it suits them to meet someone else. Some watch so much on their mobile and are mainly there to earn their living allowance.
My girlfriend certainly doesn't have to work there and there is no compulsion whatsoever, but sometimes she asks me can I go to Pattaya for a few days to have a drink with my girlfriends.
In the Netherlands, too, many look for a couples club or sex parties, they do that a lot for fun, only if you end up in that world why not also please that stray gentleman. Whether or not for a contribution to the lingerie set or a holiday. A paid hobby?
Good afternoon Peter,
'Formerly Khun' is funny because the Thai word khun means 'merit, goodness, value, virtue', in addition to 'sir, madam'.
Your story is just as much a thunder sermon, just in the other direction.
Jacques writes an honest story, from his heart. Nowhere does he talk contemptuously about prostitutes, on the contrary he is empathetic and understanding. I have the feeling that he stands up for the prostitute. What is wrong with that?
There is quite something to be said for your comments. But those are especially true for barmaids. I doubt very much that you understand how much sadness, fear, insecurity and disgust exists in most prostitutes.
They can stand up for themselves just fine, I don't think Jacques has to do that. But again if he shelters and feeds the ladies who want to get out (plus the family that depend on the ladies) then I put a statue to Jacques on my balcony.
Sorry, Peter, that's really nonsense. Can't I be against slavery without including all slaves?
Good. A question. Suppose you meet a sweet, nice barmaid and you want to live with her. She wants that too, but she is a lady who stands up for herself and she wants to continue working as a barmaid because it is just honest and fun work and pays well. Nothing wrong with that at all. What are you doing?
Dear Tino, I will not participate in the well-known yes/no discussions. My position is clear.
Nonsense? Confessing with the mouth could apply here Tino.
In a broader sense, everyone likes the fact that Thailand is quite cheap (capitalist slavery) at the expense of the people who are not so well off anyway, but that is better discussed in another topic.
Often, disrespect for others goes hand in hand with lack of self-knowledge and self-respect
Jacques.: If I would get so annoyed with the Thai prostitutes and fellow citizens with a wealthy belly, then I really don't understand why you want to live in Thailand and certainly not in the foreigners' capital Pattaya.
I don't know you personally but I still feel like I saw you once on my Sunday rest day when you called me out of bed and wanted to sell me the watchtower.
You write a long and useless piece in my eyes for the people who have a completely different view of life than you.
This writer quotes the dictionary, but does so incompletely.
In Van Dale 'respect' means demonstrating respect through behaviour, either in power relations or as an expression of appreciation based on achievements or moral qualities. In other words, respectful behavior based on fear or admiration. There is, of course, very rarely any reason for this.
What is meant by 'respect' today was once simply called 'proper manners'.
Furthermore, this is yet another example of the typical Dutch tendency to divide the whole of humanity into perpetrators and victims, and apparently all kinds of people need to be rescued who are not in the mood for that at all.
Incidentally, the highly visible farang-oriented prostitution is only roughly 15% of the total in Thailand. The real heavy misery and sexual slavery can be found on the local market
Dear Jacques,
Indeed many people who respond again miss the moral of the story "respect".
You get respect in your upbringing from your parents.
Has nothing to do with alcohol or smoking or having fun.
I like to drink a beer but always with respect to the people around me.
I often see different in Pattaya, drunk guys with a big mouth without any respect for the fellow man.
I have always learned that what you give you get back.
Believe me all those disrespectful beer bellies get back what they deserve.
What goes around comes around
I often shower here in Thailand, sometimes involuntarily in a tropical shower. Reading your extraordinarily long epistle unwelcomely showered me with a shower of mere moralism. I sense very well your zest for life in everything you share with us. you ult know a sunny life.
I feel that it is almost a task for the minister, the pastor or the employees of the Pieter Baan Center to insist that they can or should live more respectfully. No idea where you fit in that list? Personally, I find your many generalizations rather disrespectful. I don't think everyone is merely doing this or doing that because you project that onto the world.
There is a lot in our world that can and should be improved, I do not contradict you at all. But to now tarnish an entire country, with all visitors, with the same brush with reproaches from certain neighborhoods in Pattaya, the drain of this country, illustrated with pictures of places where you might drink your cup of tea there….. that I. And sad. Just as you self-title your rare long article as 'my piece', you seem to have little sense of self-reflection. Also that you finally wish me wisdom seems rather haughty to me from your pen.
This morning, completely unplanned, I enjoyed a 'special' massage with a slightly older, nice, attractive Thai lady whom I met for the first time. She addressed me with a friendly greeting, made a joke about my enormous height and about working 4 days with only 1 customer as a result. And I let myself be seduced. I had an hour or two to spare anyway. The lady seemed nice and lonely to me. Besides a pretty good start to the massage, where she chatted happily, she asked me very shyly at one point, actually, for a hug, because I was nice and she had been feeling very lonely for a while. That hug was gladly given, she took her time and was rewarded with some tears. I haven't had a boom boom in 5 years, she says, because this is a neat thing. But I miss it very much sometimes, having sex with a clean and sweet man. My husband died 5 years ago, you know. After that I avoided men for the sake of mourning. Touching and also funny that she mentioned clean as relevant. Fortunately, I take a good shower every week! She continued; I've been living on 3 coffee and 1 Mama Noodle a day for 1 days, No customers now on this quiet street. If I can't come back tomorrow, her boss won't be there, she would like more than just a hug from me. You don't have to pay me extra for that, she says, but you can! And if I could also take a portion of Toad from the market. Then she could eat! I tipped generously, chatted with her over a cup of tea and fifteen minutes later I handed her two portions of Toad and a bar of chocolate. Whether I go back tomorrow to check if the boss is really gone, my gut will tell me tomorrow.
I really thought I saw two people this morning who treated each other with great respect and care within what you consider to be such a questionable business.
I wish you strength!
A very long story, in which nothing is actually clarified. Yes, the writer thinks sex is 'dirty'.
But your parents also did that 'dirty thing' and then you came into the world.
The author talks about respect, but apparently cannot muster this for the choices someone else makes.
If someone wants to race cars, that's their choice. If someone drinks four beers a day (and lets himself be driven), then that's his/her choice.
One enjoys a walk through a museum, the other likes to chat with ladies.
No one will argue for coercion or abuse, but to dismiss an entire group of people as disrespectful…is pretty disrespectful.
Are you sure you are an atheist?
Dear,
May I fear that this is not so much about respect as about your vision of how the world should actually be.
And I can think along with that, in an ideal world it rains bahts in the morning and everyone can go outside to catch what is necessary and if the neighbor has accidentally caught a little more than someone else, then of course there will be a fair redistribution so that everyone has the same amount to get through the day.
But yes, it's not that far yet and so everyone, including the ladies in Thailand, will have to find ways to earn some money themselves.
You can do this by working for hours on end in the full sun on the rice fields for a very meager fee or in some factory or in the catering industry and I don't know what.
All hard work for little money, so some ladies choose to work in the entertainment industry, which pays considerably better.
Forced you say? Well, I can often tell you not at all, but just because it pays well and don't be fooled, the ladies know very well in which bar the Mama San takes good care of them and in which bar not at all;
and then take it from me that in the vast majority of cases the ladies decide for themselves where they want to work and where definitely not, you can best leave it to a Thai lady.
Going with older men (by definition dirty old men as one usually finds in the west) well no problem at all, I like old man I have often heard, rather than young men, they only want to spend the whole night ……….for free and when it's done there will be a friend and then another one and all for free.
Yes eh, I'm not making it up, but that's what I've heard many times.
You already understand, I'm also a bit older, a little belly too and I like a beer but I'm never drunk, I'm cozy then again regularly and I sometimes go in the company of a nice lady who is there of course receive a fee for it, yes hello, you have to eat yes……….
Sex you say? no, at my age that is somewhere at the very bottom of my list, nice man good food together, drink a bit, laugh a lot and look at her facial expressions and enjoy her presence, as I used to say in my later years “just be” if you understand what I mean.
Is this social work then? well, of course not, but if this were no longer possible, the flow of money to less fortunate parts of Thailand would shrink considerably, which would be a pity……….
A better world, well enough work, but in Thailand, well, people there are smart enough to solve the problems themselves, some Western help with that, unless requested, is really not that necessary and not really desirable, I think. know.
A lot of text, without saying anything essential. Are you maybe a politician ??. And you forget an important form of prostitution. Namely, a woman or man who marries for the money or status of the partner. Or maybe that is NOT prostitution!.
Viewing prostitution from a moral point of view, good or bad, does not get us any further. It will be clear that we must respect each other.
We must recognize that prostitution brings with it many problems, mainly due to the fact that it is a criminal offense for both the customer and the prostitute. Something needs to be done about that. I see it as a practical thing and not a moral one. What I find annoying is the opinion that nothing is wrong, just leave it as it is. That is not possible..
Hi Jacques,
Do you know those throngs of men who eagerly and disrespectfully crowd day after day, often drunk or intoxicated, for the ladies of pleasure in their brightly lit shop windows. They come from all over to the small country on the North Sea. British, Scandinavians, Asians and Americans they know it, "Holland the redlight district". Forget about the tulips and the windmills, they are side issues, they come for the girls, like tropical fish in their aquariums, the grubby drug trade and the tipsy peeking.
Batavus Droogstoppel does not see that, he disrespectfully checks the cash register and turns his nose up at those bright Thai girls and their disrespectful boyfriends. He accurately indicates the splinter in the Thai eye without hindrance from the beam between his own eyelashes.
And then something for the long winter evenings later, Jacques; “Die Liebe liebt das wandern, Gott hat Sie so gemacht”.
When I read the Epistle of Jacques I got a bad feeling. I thought: there's another one, a man with the finger who blindly proclaims his own dogmas. I wondered: what does Jaques want with this? Nothing or no one will change because of this story. It remains that the goal is probably to write off his own frustrations out of dissatisfaction with the world around him; dissatisfaction because this world does not live up to its standards. Respect is a concept with a very diverse interpretation, depending on culture, era and environment in which people live. I therefore consider Jaques' personal view of respect for Thai society, in particular the sex industry, to be completely incorrect and misplaced.
It has often been stated on this site: do not let go of the Dutch yardstick on Thai society.
I would like to add: be critical of your own yardstick when you measure others.
What does this lengthy sermon have to do with 'respect'? NOTHING, possibly wrong title chosen?
Quote:
'In my view, a life without prostitutes is also quite possible. Relationships can be entered into in many ways, paid sex is not necessary, moreover in my view and in view of all those known abuses very undesirable or are there other arguments that make more sense.'
Either the writer is a moral knight or completely unworldly. Probably, in his belief that paid sex is reprehensible, he has not even thought about what a world without the possibility of paid sex would become? I can assure you that what cannot be 'bought' will be 'stolen'. I pity the women who have to live in a world such as this which glorifies writers. They wouldn't be able to get out on the street with a feeling of peace….
Alcohol, smoking, going crazy…. all unnecessary, just sitting at home in front of the TV, holding hands all day…. that's it….. just listen to the song: 'the bachelor', very instructive…..
Wishing you a lot of fun in life and start respecting someone else's vision. Take a much deeper look into this subject for yourself, but not from a one-sided point of view or view.
First of all I would like to thank the editors for posting my article. The photos are not mine, but posted by the editors, but they do give a good picture and illustrate my story in a playful way. I'm a bit lengthy I admit this and it's written from my heart and I like to see people happy. There is a lot of misery in the world and certainly in the sex industry. I am aware that too little or say almost nothing is being done about poverty in Thailand and that partly because of this the supply of new prostitutes will not stop. So the solution will certainly have to be found there. The parents of those young people who do feel compelled to participate in this event in order to support the family must also be educated and possibly punished when it comes to selling the children to traders who often go to the be relocated abroad. You don't want to know what's going on there. Those children are also used by sex tourists and others. It is obvious that sex tourists will continue to come. It is clear that the police must be partly re-educated in Thailand. It's improved a bit, but it's not there yet. Prostitution is a criminal offense and must be tackled. That's their job. The sex tourists must be banned. Do not comply with the legal rules. Money they use as an argument for their legal actions is irrelevant to me. People come first. Thailand must take care of its own pants and take care of its compatriots. Foreigners should not get involved in this in the wrong way. I am aware that all this will never be achieved. Nevertheless, much can be done. Every child who is promised a better life and doesn't have to walk the same path as the many prostitutes who don't choose it and who don't do the work out of love is one we can win. Where there's a will, there's a way. I understand that there are various interpretations of the word respect. This is what it means to me. What others do with it is up to them. I came to Thailand because of my wife who is Thai and Dutch and wanted to live in Thailand again in her old age. My country is the Netherlands and as far as I'm concerned no country can compete with that, despite the fact that there is a lot wrong there, also in the sex industry. I have worked for the police for over forty years and have experienced many inspections, also in the field of vices. (Prostitution controls). I have worked in detective groups to combat (sexual) exploitation, just to name a few. There you do learn a lot about humanity and what they do to each other. There was and still is a lot that cannot be accepted. The resistance of many people and the great self is difficult to banish. I think that besides a minister or pastor, there are also types like me who have the moral compass in a certain direction, as I have described it, free of faith. Don't worry I have a good life and don't get bored for a second. I regret that some people write that I do not come up with solutions, but I have asked others for solutions. Have you seen them. I don't so my opinion remains unchanged. You understand that I will not give my opinion on every piece. I do understand some people and their opinion and story. Life is not black and white and I am aware of this. I too can learn and still do this every day. Best and much wisdom awarded and that money also for myself. A person is never too old to learn and hopefully I have contributed something and made some people think.
Thank you for your response and understand your frustration over the abuses you have experienced.
I embrace the saying "improve the world and start with yourself" and will read the 2-part Don Quixote novel this afternoon.
https://nl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Quichot_(boek)
@Jacques Man, man, man. Do you have a problem. Find a shrink ASAP, maybe you can still be helped. Can't believe it.
Hello Jacques,
I look forward to seeing the pieces with your stories.
Stories that are about what YOU have done about it and what YOU are doing well in your life.
Not the stories where you express your opinion about what others are doing wrong
Moderator: it is not allowed to copy entire pieces of text and post it here, a link reference will suffice.
@James
“I hope there will be a lively discussion that will make people think and I will gladly trade my opinion for a better one if you can convince me of the pros versus cons I listed in my piece.”
Your hopes for discussion have come true and it would be respectful to provide a general response to the opinions of those who have taken the trouble to respond.
I have mixed thoughts about the whole bar scene in Thailand, but what I don't understand is that the writer is going to live in Pattaya of all places if he hates this world so much. That is the same as deliberately going to live in Saudi Arabia as a Muslim hater or as a villager in Bangkok. Not logical.
Maybe a bit harsh, but I think that Jacques met his love in Pattaya, so it makes sense that the woman wants to go back to her own cozy village
I usually read the entries of Thailandblog daily, also the above article, I also read entries that are very long, but partly also the above article. Halfway through I drop out because my interest then decreases due to the length. Anyway, sex and prostitution always gives a lot of reactions, but this article is about coercion. I can assume that most girls in Pattaya do it for the money so far whether it is coercion or not but the choice is whether prostitution or no income and that actually applies to every job. I assume that most people have made that choice who need money and so have chosen to work.
I knew in advance that the necessary people would express their opinion and that was often not wrong. Lots of stupid comments that I certainly won't stoop to. There are stupid people in the world after all. So it still weighed something. I thought that my vision, side of the story, could also be heard. I'm sure there are many with me who think the same. There is a certain group of people on this blog, who are completely different from myself. I hold people in high esteem and a lot of them don't, especially given the comments that are sometimes harsh. I would like to see that people treat each other lovingly and the way people respond to me says it all. Big toes I've stepped on apparently and people who feel addressed should take a look at themselves and their behavior. I have not read a single counter argument that makes sense, yet I have listed many negative points that cannot be denied. Dear people, come up with those points and convince me. I don't think you can do this. Commenting on this behavior and this point is not done and yet I do it. Someone has to speak up for the less fortunate. I can take a beating so you won't reach me with stupid comments. I agree with the minister of Thailand who wants to tackle prostitution, despite the fact that this will cost money and cause a lot of problems, because we all know how people react, also on this blog if you speak negatively about prostitution. It's not about my Western view, but about reality. So I hope to hear from someone why it is such an asset for Thailand that prostitution in all its diversity is present here in such large numbers. For some I would definitely recommend a psychiatrist given their comments. This does not do justice to the discussion. I read that if there were no prostitution, many women would be abused or raped, because one has to get comfortable. My solution to this is to be locked up for life or released sooner after people have come to their senses through therapy. Those people are sick I can share with you and cannot characterize you as a yardstick. It is important that one can live with oneself and do good and the latter I have witnessed many times that there are many people who do not do good and that cannot be denied. It is a pity that this discussion is not possible here on substantive arguments other than based on emotion and big toes.
You've definitely stimulated some people, and some of you stepped on the …. Maybe you can share some nice and less fun (yes also sad) anecdotes from your time at the VP?
You mentioned "stupid people" in your response. Well, if you are that intelligent yourself, you would have known that banning or cracking down on prostitution is counterproductive. It forces prostitutes to go underground with all its consequences. It is better to regulate and control. This is shown by studies in various countries. Your views are very dusty and outdated. You are stuck in your own notions between right and wrong. I think that will bother you more than the average prostitute or her client.
Sorry, continued.
All true, Peter. But the point is that the voice of the prostitute herself is heard and that happens too little.
I once asked a Thai prostitute "Have you ever been raped?" (ข่มยืน khomkhuun low rising tone in Thai). And she said, "I get raped every day."
Yes, women are raped even within marriage. So tackle abuses firmly. I think everyone agrees on that.
Here's some information for those who want to read this, it won't be for everyone, but I hope people want to read this and learn from it.
1. Jump up ^ “2014 Trafficking in Persons Report”. Office To Monitor and Combat Trafficking in Persons. US Department of State. Retrieved 2015-01-11.
2. Jump up ^ Brown, Sophie (2014-06-21). “Tackling Thailand's human trafficking problem”. CNN International. Retrieved 2015-01-11.
3. ^ Jump up to: abcdefghijklmno “Thailand: Trafficking in Women and Children.” Women's International Network News 29.4 (2003): 53-54. Academic Search Complete. EBSCO. Web. September 23, 2010.
4. ^ Jump up to: abcdef Taylor, Lisa Rende (Jun 2005). “Dangerous Trade‐offs: The Behavioral Ecology of Child Labor and Prostitution in Rural Northern Thailand”. Current Anthropology. 46(3):411–431. JSTOR 10.1086/430079. doi:10.1086/430079.
5. ^ Jump up to: abcdef Bower, Bruce. “Childhood's End.” Science News 168.13 (2005): 200-201. Academic Search Complete. EBSCO. Web. September 23, 2010.
6. ^ Jump up to: abcdefghijklm Hughes, Donna M., Laura J. Sporcic, Nadine Z. Mendelsohn, and Vanessa Chirgwin. “Factbook on Global Sexual Exploitation: Thailand.” Thailand – Facts on Trafficking and Prostitution. Coalition Against Trafficking in Women. Web. Oct 12, 2010.
7. ^ Jump up to: abcd Montgomery, Heather. “Buying Innocence: Child-Sex Tourists in Thailand.” Third World Quarterly 29.5 (2008): 903-917. Academic Search Complete. EBSCO. Web. September 23, 2010.
8. Jump up ^ “People and Society; Religion”. The World Factbook; East & SE Asia; Thailand. US Central Intelligence Agency. Retrieved 2015-01-11.
9. Jump up ^ “'Girls-as-dessert' scandal exposes grim Thai tradition”. The Japan Times. June 25, 2017. The tradition — known by the euphemistic Thai phrase “treat to food, lay down the mat” — refers to the expectation that among themselves lavish superiors and VIPs with local delicacies, top-notch accommodation and sex services.
10. ^ Jump up to: ab “Fighting Aids by Empowering Women and Girls.” Foreign Affairs 82.3 (2003): 12. Academic Search Complete. EBSCO. Web. September 23, 2010.
11. Jump up ^ “National Laws and Agreements: Thailand”. UN Inter-Agency Project on Human Trafficking. United Nations. Retrieved 2015-01-11.
12. Jump up ^ “Status as at : 11-01-2015 05:03:25 EDT”. UN Treaty Collection. United Nations. Retrieved 2015-01-11.
One reason that young women and girls may be increasingly recruited into prostitution is the demand of the clientele of the sex industry. Advertised promises of youth, virginity, and innocence have led to increased demands for children in the global sex trade.[7] Research has found that the characteristics that men find attractive in Thai women are “simplicity, loyalty, affection, and innocence.”[7]
There are two types of men who use trafficked children. The first type is preferential abusers who actively seek out sex with children of a particular age.[7] The second type is situational abusers who might have sex with children if an offer is made. Their sexual preference is not necessarily for children. These men are commonly sex tourists, or those who travel to other countries specifically looking for sex.
The increasing number of people with AIDS is another reason for the increasing recruitment of young girls. The sex industry uses AIDS as an excuse “under the false pretense that younger girls will not be infected with the disease”.[6]
Once again everyone agrees that excesses in prostitution must be addressed. But what you want is equivalent to: ban football because there are hooligans.