Reader submission: Take action against health insurers about the statement of insurance
I entered Thailand in November last year with the usual COE. At that time, the Thai embassy in The Hague still accepted the statement of insurance issued by my insurance company, OHRA, part of CZ.
Problems arose later due to the fact that no specific amounts were stated on these statements. Amounts prescribed by the Thai government. The amounts are probably well known to you but just to be sure, inpatient 400.000 baht, outpatient 40.000 baht and COVID insurance USD 100.000. In some cases this has led to the refusal to issue the COE, I understand.
Having read all this, I started an action about 3 or 4 months ago to first try to get the insurance company and later the national politicians to comply with the requirements or to convince the Thai government that our insurance provides much better coverage than they require.
The reason why I turned to politics was that society hid behind the national government and claimed that they are only enforcers of government-made rules. According to them, the rules gave them no room to state amounts.
I approached the faction of a political party in The Hague and again CZ/OHRA and also Zorgverzekeraars Nederland (ZN) and BuZa via nederlandwereldwijd.nl. ZN indicated that it was not allowed to handle cases from private individuals, so I was quickly done with that. I didn't have high expectations at the start as many of you would I think. That is why I kept the campaign under wraps for a long time, as it is called, because I did not want to encourage you readers to start such a campaign, without knowing that this could be useful.
However, I am pleasantly surprised by the fact that communication with politicians and society is smooth, extremely pleasant and also quite frequent. The time has now come for the political party and society to raise the matter with Health Insurers Netherlands and Foreign Affairs and, as they call it, the national government. Of course that is no guarantee for success, but we have fairly frequent contact to exchange information and discuss the state of affairs, which I think is already remarkable.
That is why I think now is the time to ask you to take action because I am almost convinced that your input will be used and I hope that it will eventually lead to the desired result. Contact your political party in the 2nd chamber and your insurance company, it really seems to help.
I will keep you informed of my experiences and, if there are results, also express special thanks to those responsible for this. So stop hesitating, take action so you can keep visiting Thailand. If this omission continues, many of you will be put at unnecessary expense and for some it will even be impossible to return to Thailand because they cannot be insured.
Submitted by Theo Groenewegen
Theo and others, it's good that there are now two campaigns running. But as I wrote here before, the problem is in Thailand, not in the Netherlands.
Do not agree with. Thailand is entitled to set any rules and conditions for entering the country. We have to follow it whether we like it or not.
….but the distressing thing is that the NL health insurance does meet the Thai coverage requirements and even exceeds those requirements!
What you say is mostly true, but not entirely.
Dutch health insurance only covers the costs of hospitalization if it is medically necessary.
If COVID is diagnosed in Thailand, you will be admitted to a hospital, even if you are asymptomatic.
The Dutch health insurance does not regard these as medically necessary admissions and therefore does not pay.
I don't know if the travel insurance pays in that case.
However, such a recording of at least 10 days can easily cost 100.000 baht. I have already written, be careful because quite a few private companies also follow the same line.
So find out what you are covered for in case of COVID.
Thai Covid insurance policies also do not pay out in the event of a medically unnecessary admission, as in the case of Covid without any symptoms.
Indeed, I already wrote that.
When I was in an ASQ hotel in Bangkok last November, there were a few cases of asymptomatic COVID infections.
Some were admitted to the Bungrumrad hospital because their expensive ASQ hotel had a package deal with this hospital.
The minimum length of stay if I remember correctly was 10 days and the minimum cost was around 120.000 baht which was NOT covered by their private insurance.
I don't think they got a refund from the hotel either.
I won't name names of companies because then I might get into trouble. It's up to those involved to figure that out for themselves.
Your explanation is also not entirely correct. My Dutch insurance has literally stated on the insurance statement that all necessary medical costs for covid and any observative will be reimbursed. I do have a plus policy. And that is often the case. Basic insurance does not cover everything.
Theo, 'we just have to follow them?' I turn it around: there are 200 countries and soon more will come with wishes. Say: Cambodia wants cover for 3.000 dollars, Vietnam for XNUMX million dong, and I know a few more.
The NL policy says what is covered and that is up to the NL rates and with an additional policy up to higher local rates. A matter of reading. The Immigration in Thailand does not have to do anything about it; the assessment lies with the local embassy and if they say YES then that should be sufficient. I think the problem is in Thailand.
However, there is a gap where you say that Thailand forces you to a hospital bed if you already test positive. If the NL care does not cover that, you must take out additional insurance and then age and / or
medical history come into play. But can the NL healthcare cover that? I think a change in the law is needed for that.
I want to go into it one more time and briefly.
Fortunately, the countries involved are completely free to set their own rules, we may think something about it, but we have no influence on it, because we are guests.
So for the last time, take it or leave it, follow the rules or stay home, it's no different. Or convince the relevant authorities as I and others try to do.
And yes our coverage is many times better than what Thailand requires, but they don't know that.
And if those countries with all those different rules want to see those things on the policies, then that should just happen if those rules fall within the coverage. Otherwise you can't get in.
Incidentally, private companies have no problem with those statements as long as they stay within their coverage rules.
And yes, the COVID coverage of the Netherlands, but also of many private companies, is an underestimated problem. I have heard and read several times that the people just had to pay between 80.000 and 120.000 baht out of pocket, minimum 10 days of mandatory hospitalization.
Asymptomatic COVID infection, which everyone believes no hospitalization is necessary except at least Thailand and maybe some more countries.
Thailand has so few infections that they can afford it.
You cannot require the immigration officials to read all the special conditions of all those 200 countries you call to see if they comply with their rules. So I turn it around and make sure the statements say what they want to see, it's that simple.
Perhaps an action is possible from the Dutch Embassy to discuss this matter with the Thai government, that reputable health insurance companies provide ample coverage, without specific numbers being displayed.
Rob, yes that is one of the possibilities.
I also stated that in my post. One possibility is that the Netherlands can convince the Thai government that our coverage is a lot better than they want anyway.
But I also understand that Thai immigration is not waiting for all kinds of exceptions and deviations from the rules.
In the beginning, the Thai embassy also accepted the statements of insurance from our companies.
But I think they have had problems with immigration in Thailand and therefore just want to see the amounts. Again not illogical.
Bye Theo!
You may have read yesterday the message that I posted on TB, in continuation of previous messages, about the action I started, in which I also wrote to Zorgverzekeraars Nederland and the Ministry of Health, Welfare and Sport, but especially the complaint against my insurer CZ at Stichting Complaints and Disputes Health Insurers (SKGZ). I invite you to do the same at SKGZ. I first wanted to write to political parties myself, but I was afraid that it was not the right time because they are now mainly concerned with the new formation and their own profile. If you would like to contact us, please email [email protected]
Your message makes me extra happy because I now see that others are actually taking action. And if we are successful now, don't celebrate too soon, because insurers will then build in clauses for the coming years so that they can still easily ignore our requests. And of course we should not be left with a completely squeezed-out foreign cover on our health insurance. Perhaps you can also point this out to your political contact. Don't forget that our health insurance is a legal obligation, which we cannot avoid as long as we are registered in NL. So we cannot suspend the health insurance / premium in the event of a longer absence of a few months to use that savings for Thai insurance!!!
Good luck and regards, Haki
It's a pity that you are so negative about the insurance companies.
What I have experienced so far is that at least my company, CZ/OHRA not really the smallest, is quite willing to state the amounts if it does not get them into trouble and of course the companies try to draw 1 line.
They're happy to be rid of the whining.
So disregarding decisions in that direction and/or building in clauses I don't really believe in that.
Incidentally, politics determines what coverage the insurance has, the companies have no influence on that.
As an example, I refer to the case that politicians wanted to abolish global coverage a few years ago.
In that case, the insurance company simply has to follow what the politicians decide.
In the 15 years that I have been coming here, I have claimed costs from my company several times and sometimes quite high amounts (been in hospital for quite some time with severe food poisoning, etc.) and I have never encountered any problems, not 1.
So as far as I'm concerned no negative experiences.
My negative experiences are not because I have worked in the insurance industry for 25 years, but rather because of the usury policy affair. you don't want to claim that this has left a positive impression on insurers (Zwitserleven, Reaal, City of Rotterdam, etc.). Certainly not if, like me, you have become a victim and now you have to turn over every euro twice before it has to be spent on double premiums.
And for now my insurer is CZ, I believe mother me too. from yours, NOT willing to name the amounts and that's why I'm now so hard on this cause. And you outline that CZ is quite willing to name amounts, but that they will then get into trouble. Which one then? I would like to know that then.
They don't give a reason why they can get into trouble and don't have to. They are not accountable to me.
It is certain that they are quite willing is my firm conviction (see also Jos's reaction), if only to get rid of the increasing nagging.
Incidentally, distrust has been part of my profession and was spoon-fed to me, so no, I'm not one of those people who is very trusting.
I have been affiliated with OHRA for 50 years, one of their first customers, which can also be seen by my customer number hahaha and I must say that I have only had good experiences, so no reason to doubt their good intentions until now.
It is of course quite possible that you have different experiences. No two people and things are the same.
Instead of mentioning amounts, they did give me a reason; “the law does not allow them”. Well, that is very broad and I believe that the law is not relevant at all in this. With this I end my speech because I better save my energy for CZ.
The law determines the basic insurance. Not all added options available for purchase.
Dear Theo and Haki,
Maybe starting a petition is an idea!
https://petities.nl
Message us on the blog when we can draw.
Who's stopping you from starting that petition yourself. Both Theo and I have already taken initiatives and I certainly don't want to deviate from my course, but don't stop other initiatives. The more the better, I would say.
I completely agree with Haki's words, but if you also want to start an initiative, excellent idea, I will not fail to sign up.
The more people speak up, the greater the chance of success.
It is not important who takes which initiative and what the influence of each individual initiative is, only the result is important. At least that's my opinion.
So thanks in advance for the effort.
Again, I think the problem lies in the Netherlands.
Thailand is entitled to set requirements and conditions to enter the country.
In this case, those conditions are the statement of amounts on policies, statements of insurance or any other documents.
Honestly, I think it makes sense too. You cannot expect the immigration in Thailand to read through all the documents from I don't know how many countries to find out whether they meet the required minimum coverage.
That is impossible work, so it is very logical that they want to see the desired amounts.
They are then sure that the insurance meets the minimum requirements.
So we just have to meet what I think is a very reasonable requirement.
Received my COE last week. Had CZ's statement regarding the 40.000 THB and 400.000 THB (which they no longer issue by the way), but no statement stating the amount of 100.000 USD. I had this document translated at an official translation agency in Thailand (cost 600 THB) and then it was no problem at all. The embassy even sent me an email that this has been approved.
In principle, this should be arranged quickly.
Nowadays, visas are only issued in The Hague at the embassy.
The same applies to the so-called COE.
A one-two punch between the embassy and the health insurers and the problem is solved I would say.
I chose the easy way and took out insurance with AAInsurance in \hua \hin.
Had a good conversation and good help.
Have taken out insurance for 6 months, for the price of thb 18.000.
Is even possible 3 months for thb 7.500
I took this insurance for 3 reasons,
First of all, I'm fed up with the health insurance hassles and don't want to take the risk that my flight will be denied. Secondly, because my health insurance does provide me with a statement that all costs including COVID are 100% covered (at the NL rate) but that there is no reimbursement for mandatory admission with a positive test if there are asymptotic symptoms.
Third, that now that I have had my 2nd vaccine I want to go back to my family in TH and no longer wait for the insurance companies to do what we would like.
I understand your reasoning.
However, in my piece I indicated that the already well-insured are being chased for double costs and the older the higher the costs.
But what is perhaps even worse, in a number of cases people cannot insure themselves at all due to age (usually above 75) or health condition.
Another tip, beware that some private companies, just like the Dutch health insurance, do not always pay if you are admitted to hospital asymptomatically.
And if COVID is detected in Thailand you will be admitted anyway symptoms or not.
Please note, it has happened several times and the cost of such admission can easily amount to 100.000 baht up depending on the hospital connected to the ASQ hotel.
Just an addition. A CZ employee told me that the representatives of all health insurance companies will meet shortly to discuss how to deal with this situation.
“It has now come to the point that the political party and society have raised the matter with Health Insurers Netherlands and Foreign Affairs and, as they call it, the national government”
That's what I mean by my piece. CZ/OHRA told me to sit down with the government if necessary, possibly through their umbrella body Zorgverzekeraars Nederland and now apparently the insurance companies are also getting together to resolve this matter satisfactorily.
Glad to hear from you that you are making progress.
Theo, you are really well organised. However, I will not go to Bangkok until October with my Thai girlfriend. We have a condominium in Bangkok. I don't think it makes sense to apply now and object. Thank you anyway
Thank you for your response.
Then you have to wait a while and I hope and actually assume that the matter will be resolved by then.
But you never know.
Have fun in Thailand and by then maybe ASQ, COVID coverage and so on will no longer be needed or for much shorter term.
I do suspect that they will somehow keep the requirement of the "normal" insurance in it.
We'll see how it goes after July 1 in Phuket.
I arrived in Thailand on 25-04-2021 and had a statement from De Amersfoortse, now ASR, with no amounts, but that coverage included the costs for Covid.
I requested this by phone, approx March 29, 2021 and the Mrs. who I had on the phone indicated that she had been in contact with the Embassy of Thailand and that their statement was accepted.
This in response to a request from a week earlier.
Not had a single question or comment at the embassy, not with the visa application and not with the CEO application. Questions were asked at Schiphol and in Bangkok, but after indicating that the cover was higher than the requested amounts, I received the necessary stamps. My visa: Non-Immigrant-O, Multiple Entries.
I think diplomacy helps better than a lot of fanfare. The Netherlands will not be able and (should) not want to meet all the wishes of all countries in the world.
I am always amazed at the fact that so many people have problems getting the paperwork done for traveling to Thailand. I have been traveling to Thailand several times a year since 2007 and, apart from a few times through my own fault, have never had any problems. My wife, who is Thai and living in Thailand, does not, by the way, when traveling to the Netherlands and obtaining the necessary visa. She has not traveled in the Covid period! That has not to do with Covid, but with private circumstances in Thailand!
Is the problem: the rules or wanting to accept the rules?
Thank you for your clear response.
If you are a loyal follower of Thailandblog you have read that there have been quite a few different reactions lately.
Just like you and me, several people have come in with various texts on the statements of insurance, apparently even 1 with 400.000 and 40.000 baht on a statement from CZ as you can read in the comments.
However, almost everyone got questions, at least at the airport in Bangkok.
Fortunately, I traveled with my Thai partner, which helped a lot in solving the problem there quickly and very friendly.
So much for things that went well.
There are also, and I'm afraid more, where it didn't work or with enormous effort and stress, not because they were sent back or anything like that, I don't know anything about that, but simply because the Thai embassy in The Hague did not provide a COE or caused so many problems that they decided to take out private insurance.
Let's not immediately go and message the Thai embassy of arbitrariness or something like that. We don't know the backgrounds.
An example of such a case, taking double insurance, can be found in comments to my post.
If you have to take out double insurance, it will cost you depending on your age, type of cover, company and length of stay, those costs are high or low.
However, in some cases you cannot even insure yourself due to age or health condition. I am aware of 2 cases of this. Those people were therefore forced to remain in the Netherlands
To put an end to all that hassle, I started this campaign and I hope that many people will follow my example so that soon everyone can simply get a COE without any hassle and enjoy beautiful Thailand frankly and cheerfully.
Are there any questions? My email address is [email protected].
I read in the responses about companies that do not offer coverage if one is admitted asymptomatically. That is no longer possible with Thai companies, which have been imposed at the end of April that cover must be provided, regardless of whether one has symptoms and also when admitted to a field hospital or hospitel.
This obligation does not apply to foreign companies, which can therefore refuse cover if you are asymptomatic.
Thanks for this information; reassuring news!
That is good news. Also international companies that operate in Thailand?
All companies that sell a policy in Thailand. AXA Thailand does and AXA international may not. Do you really need to check.