Reader submission: 'We are getting poorer in Thailand'
It was 2016 when I first put my unclean feet on the Thai soil. In a daze of insomnia and new impressions I can remember that I exchanged my euros for no less than 39 baht each.
I liked Thailand and I came back more often, but with each return my travel budget was worth less and less due to the increase compared to the euro, while in Thailand things can also go quite fast with your money. A nice country full of beautiful destinations and tempting entertainment, however cheap the country may be, if you are not careful the bills will fly out of your pocket.
A concept that we see in the success of the major Chinese e-commerce platforms such as AliExpress, they are all bargains, but if you get the hang of it, you later turn out to have spent more than you initially intended. Unfortunately for us, but very nice for the Thai who want to travel to Europe themselves, our euro has reached a low point in value against the baht. While writing this I am looking at a chart that officially shows me a value below 35 baht for 1 euro. To be precise, for every euro I now get 34,9970 baht. In practice, this is of course lower because bureaux de change also have to earn money.
In 2016, I received a whopping 1.000 baht for every 39.000 euros, now less than 34.997. We have lost no less than 4000 baht per every 1000 euros, that is 114 whole euros per 1000. Now it will probably not discourage the average holidaymaker, but do you have a girlfriend there, are you an expat, do you live there for what reason? whatever or if you are sometimes there for months then you will notice it a lot. At least if you have to do it with a little less money. Because all Thai temptations cost money, so the man with a small purse will have to do it more economically.
The value is only falling for us (low point in 4 years), leave in the comments if you see this continuing and how this decrease (or increase, it's just how you look at it) affects your life.
Submitted by Jatoon
In April 2015, the Euro was still below 34,50 THB, so these are all snapshots, but in the longer term you can say that the value of the Euro vs THB is indeed falling. This mainly has to do with the Euro, because the US$ compared to THB is fairly stable, fluctuating between 30 and 35 THB over the past 10 years. Whether it will continue like this depends on so many factors that no one can give you a sensible answer. If you are tied to Europe for income and to Thailand for expenditure, there is simply not much you can do about it.
If you call the USD-ThB ratio stable because of fluctuations between 30 and 35, then that of the Euro against ThB is just as stable, after all, between 35-39. According to your reasoning, there is nothing wrong with that.
I have to agree with Kees…
The USD/THB ratio is about the same as it was 10 years ago… There has been a dip, there has been a peak…
10 years ago the USD was 34 THB, now 31 THB…
However, the EUR shows a downward trend: from 48 THB to 35 THB…
So there is a big difference between EUR and USD!
In 2006 I exchanged a lot of euros and then I have around 50 baht
received for one euro.
2015 I exchanged the rest of my euros and only got a little over 39 baht.
Now I don't have any euros left and I won't get my state pension until 2024.
Let's hope that the euro / baht will be better then,
In the meantime I don't worry and live here in the Isan
still nice and cheap and that banana plantation is eye-catching
a little extra business money.
For the rest I say – mai pen rai .
A similar post was posted yesterday: https://www.thailandblog.nl/lezersvraag/nu-thaise-baht-kopen-of-beter-even-wachten/
You are not getting poorer. You don't have more or less than you have. And the ThB is now 35, and maybe 40 again in half a year. Who knows. Yesterday I already explained that with smart policy nothing is consumed.
On holiday in Turkey, Curaçao or to Miami? There too you get less for Eur 1000 than 10 years ago. What does it matter? If you come as a tourist, you have a holiday budget, and you make do with it!
If you come as a retiree, it is up to you whether you come on the basis of 12 months per year or 8 months TH and 4 months NL, or for example, as in my/our case, a number of years TH and back to NL, and in a few semi-permanent for years. But no one is obliged to move to TH and spend their euros there. If you can't afford it, you have no business here.
I also responded in the previously published posting; take into account the evolution of the global economy and the target parity US$ / Euro where the dollar is now worth 31.2 Thb and the Euro 35 Thb. It looks like the Euro could fall another 10%…
@ Kees as the saying goes: “When they shave you have to sit still”.
Not only the evolution of the exchange rate difference has been eating away at the purchasing power of EU citizens in Thailand for years. The EU itself has been eroding our purchasing power for years. After all, inflation there is higher than the (artificially low QE) interest rate. The ECB is doing the dirty work of putting politicians out of the wind, so to speak. Politicians who, to the quick personal honor and glory, put the interests of the country above those of the people.
As a result, less risky investments (e.g. savings accounts, high-quality bonds) are “loss-making”. Seeking refuge in products such as shares and bitcoins, on the other hand, entails more or much more risks. Risks that can break up the broad middle class with a little savings.
Leading economists meanwhile present scenarios in which the middle class in the EU will (in time?) disappear. If, like many, you belong to that middle class, it is anything but a pleasant prospect for your future old age. The postings here about abbreviated pension are writing on the wall.
Still, it's not all doom and gloom for the Thailand-goer, is it? The exchange rate may have fallen somewhat, but the terms of trade are still in favor of the EU citizens. Read: for 25 euros your shopping cart in Thailand is still three-quarters full, while in the low countries you barely cover the bottom. As an extra, the sun shines more there and the select Thai elite continues to take good care of themselves. There are still certainties and we can't make it more fun.
Yes 10 years ago. my shopping cart in lotus half full 3000 bath and don't buy imports at all, so what you say 25 euros for 3/4 full is a joke, edibles for 40 pec. up
It depends on what you buy. If you buy Thai products, certainly, but if you buy eg cheese, meats, beer or wine, then I feel quite taken in my star because I am much cheaper in the Netherlands.
Yes, once a house here that reduces costs and also taxes. But certainly not the daily groceries for me.
This is how the Thai state gets its income: import duties, especially on wine.
That is why you pay virtually nothing in tax in Thailand.
But COMPLAINT.. the NL-er never skips that.
No. Import duties are only a very small part of the Thai government's income. Approximately: 30% from VAT, 30% from business taxes, 20% from income tax, 10% from excise duties (tobacco, alcohol, fuel), and the rest 10% divided over a number of smaller items. So everyone in Thailand contributes 60-70% to the state's income, including foreigners.
Around 2006-7 I already lived in Cambodia, the Euro was worth $1,47 for a while, now around $1,12 to 1,13. That saves me hundreds of dollars now.
Came to live in Thailand in 2009. Back then you could still exchange 50 baht for 1 euro.
In the year that our beloved Gulden became the Euro (was that 2002?) I got Euro 500-Baht 25000- from the ATM. ATM withdrawals are free. Now that is only Baht 17000 - for the same Euro 500 - plus so-called expenses.
That was on 01.01.1999
No Daniel,
The introduction of the Euro in almost all EU countries was on January 1, 2002.
Before then, Th Bth was against the B fr: 1 to 1!
That was easy to calculate for the Belgians.
We Dutch got about 18 Th Bth for Fl. 1,=
In 2002 with the introduction of the euro 54 bath for 1 euro.
Now it is miserable, especially if you go back in time and compare the prices of 2002 in Thailand with the current ones.
Still, I can't stay away. Have been going since 1977 and go every year at least 2 times for 8 weeks.
It's not Thailand but our fucking European Union that is destroying everything..
When will we get rid of that.
Happy traveling to everyone
The Euro was introduced in 1999.
Dear Daniel M,
That is not the case.
In 2001 I received the first euros in a folder from our Dutch government.
I know at the time that I took this to Thailand to give to a Thai French friend
to give.
The Euro was introduced in 2002.
You have misunderstood or never had this folder.
Yours faithfully,
Erwin
The Euro was actually introduced on January 1, 1. It was actually distributed on January 1999, 1. There have been course corrections in between. So what counted for the citizen is 1-2002-1. Theoretically, Daniel is right.
In practice?
When we got our hands on the euros (around 2002), it was worth between 40-45 baht. If we look at the average from 2002 to now, the rate is still between 40-45. The postings here that the euro was worth 50+ THB in the beginning are nonsense. Those 50+ years were a peak period, see Erik's graph below. Apparently people like to dream about something that wasn't. Everything was better in the past. 555
https://nl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro
https://fxtop.com/en/historical-exchange-rates-graph-zoom.php?C1=EUR&C2=THB&A=1&DD1=01&MM1=01&YYYY1=2002&DD2=16&MM2=06&YYYY2=2019&LARGE=1&LANG=en&CJ=0&MM1Y=0&TR=
Karl, where did you get that from? Throughout 2002, the euro-baht rate has not been above 40.
https://fxtop.com/en/historical-exchange-rates-graph-zoom.php?C1=EUR&C2=THB&A=1&DD1=01&MM1=01&YYYY1=2002&DD2=16&MM2=06&YYYY2=2019&LARGE=1&LANG=en&CJ=0&MM1Y=0&TR=
Dear Eric,
Try googling the history of Eur/Th Bth 'ns. Then you see that in 2002 Th Bth 50 for € 1,= was given!
Pear, I gave you a chart. What's wrong with that then? Besides, in 2002 I lived in Thailand and didn't get 50.
Erik, I also lived here and even got Baht 52 in the beginning through the ATM which was free as said before.
dear Cris, take comfort: the price of groceries in the Netherlands has not risen so fast in ten years, 5 % in one year, in the month of May alone it has become an average of 3,8 % more expensive compared to a year ago
thanks to the increase in VAT by our cabinet... so you are still in good hands in Isaan!!
Wishing you lots of fun and good times….
I also prefer 40 thb or more for n Euro. But because I can't influence this, I just don't look at the exchange rate anymore. Better for my mood.
In Europe I would be much worse off. There, too, it is getting more and more expensive every year to make ends meet on one modest pension.
For some reason, I increasingly get the feeling that expats in Thailand have or will have a bad life. In the Netherlands, almost everything is becoming more expensive, such as energy, fuel, rent, etc. These are all things where you cannot or hardly make any cuts. State pension and/or pension will hardly increase. Certainly not keeping up with inflation. So I wonder if it makes sense to go to another country if you can't live there the way you would like. I increasingly have the impression that the Thailand blog is becoming an Asian wailing wall.
How was that expression again: “if the Dutch stop complaining and pastors stop asking questions, the world will come to an end”.
Well, here's one that is still having a great time in Thailand, especially in terms of cost!
Thanks to the fact that I don't live in my house in NL myself, but have tenants in it, I have about 900 euros more to spend per month (after deduction of box 3 tax)… and do that in Thailand!
Furthermore, no WOZ tax, no municipal taxes, no high energy bill (30 euros per month in Thailand instead of around 100 in NL). In Thailand I pay little tax for the car, petrol is half as expensive as in NL. Moreover, I only drive 3000 km per year in Thailand, while in NL it was 20.000 (family visit, friends' birthdays, travel expenses due to work, hobby).
I bought a condominium in Thailand and have very low living costs (200 euro service costs per year!). Health insurance I pay 260 euros per month, in NL I would clearly have to pay more because of the tax component that you pay for the health insurance.
In the years of cheap baht I still had around 1000 euros per month, now that is maybe 300-400 less…. but it is still much cheaper for me to live in Thailand than in NL.
And then I don't even have state pension yet...
It seems to me that this is just stating facts and I wouldn't classify that as complaining.
It is a fact that it is becoming increasingly difficult for expats with a modest income to make ends meet. Inflation is on top of the depreciation of the euro.
Import products in particular are extremely expensive. (cheese, butter, wine, rye bread, etc.)
It is a good warning to those considering immigrating to Thailand, don't think
that you end up with less every month.
I am certainly not complaining, but luckily I have a reasonable income.
This does not apply to everyone and the more expensive baht is certainly an increasing problem for them.
Actually, as I saw yesterday when I saw the salami price in the macro, imported goods should be cheaper, especially those from Europe. After all, you pay less baht for a Euro. But no, a pack of sliced salami cost 135 baht a while ago. That is already 195 baht. At the current exchange rate it should have cost 100 baht. These are not exact numbers, but rough estimates.
On July 2008 bought my condo with exchange rate of 53 THB/€
You can also look at it from the bright side!
The Netherlands has become a lot more expensive from January 2019 compared to non-indexed pensions.
Think, for example, of the increase in the low VAT rates!
And if you are going to BUY Euros in Thailand now, you only pay 35 Baht!
Anyone who now takes his so-called “loss” on a condo earns it back through this transaction!
What a sour note. The Thai Bath has become a lot stronger compared to the dollar and Eur. So the financial market has confidence in the currency. If people really start to feel it in the export market, the Thai central bank will make adjustments
For an expat who, years ago, only thought he could spend his evening here cheaply with his state pension and perhaps a small pension, now of course has to be a little more careful.
It is mainly good health insurance, and not being able to live without Western products that are now making life in Thailand increasingly difficult.
Yet even the biggest complainer should be aware that they still live voluntarily in a country where many things are much cheaper, and service providers earn next to nothing.
Would they really adjust the wages of the latter to the Level where most expats would already be screaming homicide, most would be forced to go back to their home country.
Any complainer, harsh as this may sound, still benefits from the fact that many Thais go home with hard work compared to starvation wages.
Even a tourist who thinks he cannot resist the temptations of the Thai beauty should ask himself whether a European woman would even take a step for this money.
Drinking less beer, skipping the daily party tours a few times, thinking a little more about your fellow man, makes Thailand, despite the fact that we temporarily get a little less for the Euro, still a fantastic tourist destination.
Someone with an AOW and small pension can no longer even stay here continuously. 65000 baht net income. Do the math. 2 years ago there was still the discussion about 65000 net or gross. And with the current exchange rate, that is an AOW and a reasonable pension.
Dear Willem, There are still enough Expats who are married to a Thai, who still live here on an AOW and a pension with 400.000 Baht in a bank account.
I wouldn't give them a living who don't even have health insurance, or at most a minimal one that pays out a fraction in an emergency.
On average, we do not spend 30.000 Thb per month.
Have paid off the house and bought the car without a loan.
This is not "nastyness", but we just live without fuss and neither smoke nor drink and eat normal Thai and European food. Twice a week we usually eat in a restaurant, the rest of the week we cook for ourselves or get it from a roadside stall.
A plate of nasi or rice with a dish here costs between 40 and 50 Thb.
Even for the falang there is a place that sells tasty steaks from 50-85 Thb.
Add some fries and salad, enough for a meal.
The annual holiday to NL is not included in this.
To show that life in TH is cheaper than in NL, for example, it is often said that a plate of nasi or rice only costs 40 to 50 baht. This distorts the picture, because what are we talking about. Who can function for a day on a plate of nasi or rice? Just considering the amount of it that is put on that plate. Be honest and don't just talk about a plate of nasi or rice, but about the costs of food spread over the day. Multiplied by a factor of 2, because the woman's mother also eats. If there are more than one family member, the plate of fried rice will become even more expensive. Even if you need several steaks a day, especially with fries and lettuce.
if I'm not mistaken I got 1bath for 2010 euro in 52
Have a look at the graphs.
US$ to THB: between 34,5 and 31,5 (with some small peaks) see https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=USD&to=THB&view=10Y of https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/bank-of-england-spot/historical-spot-exchange-rates/usd/USD-to-THB.
The exchange rate against the Euro is a derivative of this.
Have a small pension + state pension, which is 4x as much in THB as what a Thai earns on average for working 7 days a week! You won't hear me complaining, even if the THB drops even further.
'Wealth is not in your wallet, but between your ears.'
That's what my good old grandpa already said. Only not everyone wants to believe that..... And what is Jan saying here today?
'More and more I have the idea that Thailandblog is becoming an Asian wailing wall.' John, you may be right...
When Rooie Rob set foot on Thai soil for the first time +/- 16 years ago, he received 52 Bahtjes for a Euro. Due to the policy of the European Central Bank, he saw the number of Bathjes decrease to the current level over the years.
Dear Rooie Rob, if Rooie Rob had set foot on Thai soil a few years earlier, he would have seen that converted to the then Dutch guilder, he certainly would not have received more than the current Euro-Baht rate.
The 52 baht was a one-off phenomenon that will not return so soon, so that a constant comparison even with a debt allocation to the ECB is not entirely true.
Well 20 years ago, the Ned.Gulden, and even the so-called hard German Mark did not do better than the current Euro-Baht rate.
Completely agree, the euro has been fairly overvalued since its introduction in 2002 until say 2012, so that has been compensated in recent years.
sorry, I meant 2010 instead of 2012
I still go to the hairdresser in Thailand for about 2 Euro, which easily saves me about 100 Euro per year, compared to the Netherlands.
Yes and apart from the price… even if you don't have more than 3 hairs on your head, you spend at least half an hour in the hairdresser's chair in Thailand compared to 5 minutes in the Netherlands…
It is not the case that the baht is only becoming more expensive. The Euro: also tgo. E.g. The Singapore dollar has risen sharply. Apparently there is heavy speculation on the baht in SE Asia and the Thai central bank is doing nothing
The thb compared to the euro may be bad for us expats, but if you wrote down what you actually spend here per month and then not converted to the euro, but take a look at what you can still do with your state pension and possibly pension in the Netherlands.
Think that in the Netherlands you can no longer do a lot of things that you still consider very normal here.
Take a normal rental house 8000 to 15000 thb (280 euro 525) then you live in the Netherlands for the same amount in a 1 room house far outside the city or a small room in the city.
Don't forget to pay for gas, water and electricity, because that is also a big rib out of your body in the Netherlands, then I am happy that I live here and it may have to cut back a bit in expenses, but nevertheless have a more pleasant life.
My first visit to Thailand was in December 2007, I remember when I sometimes got 54 baht for a euro. The last time December 2018, I thought 36 baht for one euro.
Hotel has gone from 900 baht to 1000 baht per night in that time. Count out your profit.
Now those from year 2016 immigrants complain, what if from 2009 when I got 47.50 baht for 1 € even from the widely known stingy Kasikorn exchange for my burned ships...
I'm lucky that I converted that sloppy into Baht, I don't have to worry about the poor Euro exchange now, but not that I like it, because my margin will expire within +/- 4 to 5 years and then I'll have to pay my euros back. transfer.
Although I then planned to go back to Belgium . to return to address there, can I also bypass the 800 baht freeze via Non OA visa (may be on Belgian Bank without freezing after granting)
38 years ago I got 1 guilder 6 thb beer cost then 25 thb so 4 guilders
When I started a pub in the Netherlands in 1980, a draft beer cost me 1,10 guilders, now a draft beer there costs 2,20 euros, so prices are going up everywhere and the price increase in Thailand is not too bad.
After many years of living in Thailand for a few months in the winter and having spoken to various expats, I still don't know whether you can live so comfortably in Thailand with AOW and a small pension.
what is a reasonable monthly amount for an expat with his girlfriend?
30.000, 40.000. 60.000 baht.
Everything used to be better in the past. Higher Wao benefits. Early retirement schemes. No Aow gap.
What can mainly the Dutch complain again.
I think poor refers more to the Thai for whom life is also becoming more expensive.
The last rate in 2001 of the guilder against the baht was 17,78 baht for 1 guilder, so it's not too bad, in 1990, my first time to Thailand, we got 13,54 baht for 1 guilder.
https://fxtop.com/en/historical-exchange-rates.php?A=1&C1=NLG&C2=THB&TR=1&DD1=&MM1=&YYYY1=&B=1&P=&I=1&DD2=15&MM2=06&YYYY2=1990&btnOK=Go%21
In 1990 I received 13,54 baht for 1 guilder and in 2001, the last guilder year, I received 17,78 baht for 1 guilder, so it's not too bad.
We are already going on holiday 30 times and have only been back in April,
But this was the first time that I said we have to change again, that can't just be done, but that's the way it is, just look and we also went to eat and had a taxi and bought a t-shirt, etc. The first time that I really felt we had to spend more than normal. We almost always do the same thing hanging around in bangkok, visiting the market, eating some street food and snacking, eating a restaurant now and then and walking around. years ago I thought we'd ever have so much bath how is that possible now it didn't seem to work (50 for euros) and now it was only on . Hotels are also getting more and more expensive, the rest is not too bad because a nice smoothie and some fruit and juice along the road is still cheap, but yes first 2 juices for a euro now a yes goes a bit faster. but will it come again that 50 bath I go completely crazy, ha ha
For those who want to build a house now, it has become even more expensive. so I'm glad I'm settled.
15 years ago a bag brand Chang portland cement 93 bath now 135 bath.
15 years ago 3 bottles of Chang Beer for 90 bath now 2 bottles for 120 bath.
The only thing that is still cheap here are the labor costs, 15 years ago a construction worker earned around 300 baht, now around 500 baht.
Import a can of Campels soup from the USA, then around 40 baht, now around 70 baht. A very small piece of real Dutch cheese at the Rimpingmarket now 240bath.
If you want to live here for a longer period of time, make sure you have a well-filled piggy bank on hand. Otherwise, you can get quite financially distressed in the future.
Not only because of the changes in your country of birth, but also the requirements in Thailand are changing rapidly.
Just think of the ever-changing visa requirements as an example.
For the 800K visa bathers, you can no longer use 400K bath throughout the year.
Increasing medical costs especially in private hospitals and rising health insurance premiums.
Once you arrive in such a credit card hospital, your savings go down quickly.
Jan Beute.
When I first signed on in Thailand as a sailor 63 years ago, I bought a beer for 15 baht. The guilder was only worth 8 baht, so we didn't lose that much. The barfines were also relatively as expensive as they are today.
Learned a lot again today on this blog, for € 25 a full shopping cart. Small cart for sure.
And the Euro was introduced in 1999, I have been sleeping for at least 3 years.
Yes indeed Thailand has become a lot more expensive! I've been going there for 15 years for older people who want to spend their older day there, it's getting difficult! And there too everything becomes much more expensive, including the things you need! I am going back at the end of this year for 2 months
All South East Asian countries their currencies are getting stronger. All these countries are improving and are stable. They have everything that attracts investors. The west burps rear window. Thailand burps ahead. The golden sixties have now started there. And ASEAN is coming.
The future is behind us. The euro and the dollar will weaken even further along with our economy. We have had the best trump cards with Europe to work together and grow into a world power, but we prefer to believe in populists who are roaring that working against each other will be better. One reaps what one sows.
Growth in Thailand has been declining for some time now, open the newspapers and see that people are concerned. Thailand's economy is barely growing more than the Netherlands. Roughly 3%, NL hardly less. TH's poorer neighbors are catching up faster, but Thailand is just as stuck in the upper middle position. Take another look at the Bangkok Post, Nation and so on.
We've had this discussion before 🙂 :
https://www.thailandblog.nl/nieuws-uit-thailand/thailand-verkiezingen-2019-prayut-keert-waarschijnlijk-terug-al-premier/#comment-549175
So I see no reason for both Thailand and the Netherlands to be highly optimistic or pessimistic, both with regard to the exchange rate and the economy. The future lies worldwide and not on 1 continent. However, there are plenty of challenges. See for example:
“Despite a strong fiscal position and low external vulnerability constituting credit strengths amid recurring political uncertainty, Thailand's aging society, moderate competitiveness and labor shortages will weigh on economic growth and public finances over time”
- https://www.bangkokpost.com/business/1694780/moodys-ageing-labour-issues-dog-thailand
” The decline of the index for the past three months, from March to May, reflected downtrend of the Thai economy with no clear signal of a recovery. (…) The Thai economy is projected to expand 2.8-3.2 per cent in the second quarter of this year, Thanavath said”
- https://www.nationmultimedia.com/detail/Economy/30370679
I have been living and working here for 12 years now.
Earn about 60% of what I earned in the Netherlands, have 10 paid vacation days here compared to 28 in the Netherlands, hand in 2% of my AOW every year and have never been so rich in my life.