Column: Failed the integration exam
LADIES AND MEN, BOYS, GIRLS AND OTHER HEADSCARF WEARERS: THE INTEGRATION QUIZ…
Blogger Blacksmoker (thanks for that) sent me a link to the Teleac course “Inburgeren”. I love quizzes and courses. I still fondly think back to Berend Boudewijn and “Pierre” who gave away coffee makers as if they cost nothing.
So using the link I did the incurseringburg recurrence event online, even though I was warned by Blacksmoker. A 4,9 was my share, thus entering the company of well-known Dutchmen such as Jacques d'Ancona, Susan Smit and Howard Kompoe (and the like).
Just for fun, let's take a look at some questions. The first question is immediately a buyer:
1. Which tradition originated in the last century?
a) Eating oliebollen.
b) the New Year's Conference.
c) Set off fireworks.
The beauty of this question is that it mercilessly exposes the core of Dutch culture. I can totally picture it, all those Ploy's and Moo's nervously fiddling with their Buddha amulets after reading this question.
The answer must of course be 'b'. Wim Kan (RIP) started at the beginning of the Dutch television era, in the 50s, by mildly poking fun at the politicians.
They have not yet been received or there is the next question again:
2. Why did the Dutch ever start setting off fireworks?
a) To drive away the evil spirits.
b) To give the New Year's party an extra festive touch.
c) Have we copied from our Chinese fellow countrymen.
“Buyer” thinks Lek and ticks 'b'.
WRONG!!! Hahaha, you see that those immigrants don't understand anything about Dutch culture. The answer is 'a'. The Germans used to make a lot of noise to chase away the ghosts and that has crept into the 21st century, that habit.
On to the next question:
3. A colleague of yours is throwing a party because she is getting married. You are not invited (PVV party). What are you doing?
a) You give her a present, something for the kitchen, for example.
b) You send her a card.
c) You send her an envelope with money.
Hmm, that's a tough one for Ning… She leans towards answer 'b', but thinks “I'm not that kind of jerk” and ticks answer 'a'.
WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!! haha!!! No, we Batavians fill in answer 'b'. We don't like to spend money at all. A food processor? Do you sometimes need something from us?
You're on your way home Ning… Hahaha!!
Should I still continue? Okay, one more then. “To unlearn it” as we Germans used to say…
3. How long does it take you to travel by train from Amsterdam to Enschede without delays?
a) 1 hour
b) 2 hours
c) 3 hours
Difficult question. Especially that 'without delays' is an instinct all the more because you have never traveled on a train that was not delayed (witness the delay boxes).
Hmmm, Noi thinks, you know what, I'm positive, I'm going for answer 'a'.
Mwoehaaaaa!!! Wrong, wrong, wrong!!! It's answer "b" smarty. One Way Nakhon Nowhere baby!!!
Is it just me or is it really the case that such questions have bubbled up in a civil service corps with chronic heartburn? An integration exam is only valuable when open questions are asked. Completely retarded this, and an insult to people who are forced to answer such infantile questions.
I failed. That's a prize..
You're not the only one, I also failed with a 5 or something.
Completely ridiculous that you even have to deal with such things. As a Dutchman, I have no clue about most questions, why should a foreigner know?
In my opinion, integration is simply being able to function normally in a society. I don't see why those kinds of exams are necessary. When my girlfriend was in the Netherlands for 3 months, I had to go abroad for 3 weeks because of work. She has been able to manage well in those weeks. Shopping, pinning you name it, it's not that difficult.
The biggest problem for my girlfriend is that she is bored in the Netherlands, as long as you don't know the language it is just very difficult to get a job. Furthermore, a large part of life in the Netherlands takes place indoors, instead of outside as in Thailand. Furthermore, I don't see very well in which areas she needs to integrate.
I actually think it's really stupid that you have to deal with those kinds of integration procedures. I understand that the Dutch government wants to keep out economic refugees. But then it is very simple, you are married, they will receive a residence permit, you will withdraw a divorce permit and that's it.
Unfortunately it is not that simple. I assume that by "married" you mean a lasting and exclusive relationship, which is one of the requirements to qualify for a residence permit (between October 1 and the end of December - officially per April - there was a fidelity requirement, but this is deleted again). In addition, there is the income requirement: the sponsor - person who already lives here - must have a sustainable income. That sounds nice, but means that you must earn 100% minimum wage, which is available for at least 1 whole year and not a day less on the day of application or you must have had 3 years of sustainable income. That makes it difficult for people who are just starting out on the labor market. Personally, I am more in favor of "as long as you can keep your own pants on, the foreign partner does not have to count on benefits from the state for the first 5 years and then grows into this with a few years".
A language requirement is logical, even though there will be people who can also go here with another language (for example English), but for everyday life it is practical if someone can go in Dutch (shopping, etc.) .
The rest will come naturally. It will never be perfect, there will always be people who are unjustly victimized from an emotional point of view, but also people who can stay here permanently even though they actually show undesirable (but not punishable) behaviour. One person would still want to send you back after 10 years, for another that is dramatic. Simply stating that after the relationship has ended, the foreign partner must return seems very cold to me. Think of children, other ties that have been built up in the meantime. On the other hand, you don't want someone to be able to sit on their laziness, but that also applies to Dutch people born and raised here. Everyone should participate in society according to their ability…
But the current requirements and rules, which are clearly aimed at outdated clichés of hordes of third world country (Muslim?) migrants who want to come here and then do not integrate or even cause problems. But except for a few games (SP, GL and a little bit of D66) you don't hear anyone about that. The rest focuses on this backward immigration and integration policy, which we have known since 2006 and which has been tightened up several times (thanks PvdA, VVD, CDA, PVV).
Rob,
That's what I mean. Test whether people can keep their pants on and don't get involved as a government. The income requirement for the sponsor no longer seems logical to me. If you have serious plans, you will still have to have a sustainable income and minimum wage is not too heavy. Conversely, that is also the case in Thailand, if you are married to a Thai you can also get an annual visa, which has some financial requirements, but if you have serious plans, you will also have to do something financially.
A Pole who does not speak a word of Dutch or English can walk in and live in the Netherlands. A bit strange that as a Dutch-Thai family with sufficient income you suddenly have to deal with all kinds of hassles such as integration etc. Then take an exam when applying for Dutch nationality, which I think is more reasonable than the way things are now.
They will not ask open questions, if only because:
– Multiple choice can be easily checked by a computer. Immediately much cheaper.
– There is then no certainty that the answers will be assessed objectively (this can be compensated to some extent by having at least 2 independent examiners look at this). For example, what do you do when someone has a birthday, is getting married and you are/are not invited? Or if you get new neighbors? Actually, any answer is correct as long as you don't break the law: do nothing, give a present, give money, send a card, visit anyway (can be antisocial, but if the person has something like "everyone who comes by without an appointment is also welcome" then it is not necessarily a wrong answer), asking if you can come by, … My conclusion: these kinds of questions are nonsensical.
In the real exam there are more strange questions (for example about what you do when you get new neighbors, I think the answer is that you are going to introduce him, but why would a card, do nothing or something else be wrong?). You have to fill in the “socially desirable” answer, generalizing about how the stereotypical Dutch person would react. Whether they react slightly differently in your region, let alone the millions of individuals, that doesn't matter. Sense at zero, answer as if you are a stereotypical Dutch with roots in Christianity and ancient Germans, preferably also hermaphrodite because you can get questions that concern a certain gender. For example, last year there was a fuss about a well-known immigrant who was asked "when can a woman become pregnant again after having a baby?" . Well, not easy to answer as a man... And no, an answer like "then I will consult a medical institution such as the GP or a website about pregnancy" is not listed.
Or how about the questions in the integration exam at the embassy?” who will take care of you when you arrive in the Netherlands, the government or your partner?” Uhm, how about "my partner and I" (and then we leave out the nuance about building up/obtaining social rights, premium accrual, family and friends of the immigrant or partner who can help, etc.).
And then there are the shortcomings such as a computer that does not understand the candidate, for example due to pronunciation or not being able to handle corrections. If you answer "two.. no, three THREE" then the computer calculates it wrong, you may only answer "three" once. See, for example, Kassa's broadcast in February about Ning (?) who repeatedly fails the Spoken Dutch Test, while her teachers label her level as sufficient.
No, the exam should not be more than a written and oral (with human examiners) exam to test the language level. Those social questions are often open to a multitude of answers and who says that in practice you respond in a socially desirable way? And those historical or topographical questions, handy or nice, but not necessarily necessary to be able to play with this in the Netherlands.
I also had to think about how many Thai people know the origin of SongKran or how long it takes you to travel (by train?) from Khrungthep to a random big place more than 1 hour away. Let's not give the Thai government any ideas. 😉
Here's a link to the item in Checkout:
- http://kassa.vara.nl/tv/afspeelpagina/fragment/moeite-met-slagen-via-spraakcomputer-voor-inburgeringsexamen/speel/1/
“In order to get a Dutch residence permit, immigrants must pass a speech exam. This exam is almost impossible for some people to pass. What should you do when you are fully integrated and still fail nine times because of your foreign accent?
Fall nine times
That happens to the Thai Ning van Vegchel. She has been living in the Netherlands with her husband Jacques van Vegchel since 2010. Ning is fully integrated and she has passed two of the three integration tests. The third test, the Test Spoken Dutch (TGN) or an oral speech test, remains unfeasible for Nin. After taking the test no less than nine times, she still failed. The problem of not being able to succeed is of a technical nature. The test is administered (orally) by a computer. This computer determines whether the given answer is correct. Because Ning is of Asian descent, it is difficult for her to fully pronounce the Dutch words (especially the 'r' and 'l' sounds). Even special lessons with speech therapists are of no avail: the test is impossible for Ning to pass. As a result, Ning will not receive a residence permit and she will also have to pay back no less than € 6000 in tuition fees, because according to the rules of the law she "did not make sufficient effort to pass the entire exam".
Faulty system
Language and integration teachers think it's really nonsense that people like Ning don't get a residence permit because they can't get through the speech computer. In the Kassa broadcast, several experts speak about the weaknesses of the system. For example, Annelies Braams, teacher of Dutch, argues for a completely different system. “People have to repeat sentences, but if they swap two words while the essence of the sentence remains the same, they don't get all the points. They get a point for each correct word and a bonus for a sentence in the correct order.” She therefore believes that the test should be abolished: "any alternative is better than this test." Speech technology expert Helmer Strik of Nijmegen University also believes that the speech test used cannot be used for these (important) assessments. (…)”
And parliamentary questions about this, the answers can be guessed (“the test is fine, but we will see if anything needs to be done for notary losers” yes yes):
http://www.rijksoverheid.nl/bestanden/documenten-en-publicaties/kamerstukken/2013/02/07/antwoorden-op-kamervragen-over-de-problemen-met-het-examen-toets-gesproken-nederlands/antwoorden-op-kamervragen-over-de-problemen-met-het-examen-toets-gesproken-nederlands.pdf
It's actually shameful, questions like that. I also failed that exam.
Of course, I'm just an ordinary old fart who moved to Thailand at the age of 61.
Perhaps if I want to return to the Netherlands again due to circumstances, there may also be new legislation that requires such an exam.
You never know what they'll come up with.
Of course meant as a joke. I do feel sorry for those people with that integration
to deal with. Makes no sense at all.
Is there still a sensible person in the Netherlands who makes something normal out of this?
I do not think so.
J. Jordan.
I also answered these questions once, but I also failed. If a Dutch person fails the integration course, what do you expect from a foreigner? Should we be honest and say that we just don't want foreigners in anymore? Then just be honest, but don't ask questions that even a Dutchman doesn't understand, or he will have to see the answers later and then thank you like I did; OOO that's what they mean by this question.
Dear Cor,
I think it's great that you explain these integration nonsense questions in this way.
It is high time that the people responsible for these questions are revealed because I am convinced that the majority of the Dutch do not recognize themselves in these very stupid questions.
It is a wonder to me that no authority has yet objected to these long-running insulting questions to foreigners. These questions have nothing to do with integration.
That is why another integration question that a foreigner may answer in order to pass…. how many prison terms would democratically be given to the author of these kinds of questions in the Netherlands by most Dutch people, and which have such great consequences for your future. A) 20 B)30 or C)40 years.
most will get it right…it's C 40 years. yahoo .. passed.
Supposed that Thailand would make an integration course compulsory for all foreign men who live with or are married to a Thai woman here in Thailand… how many of them would not even be able to read the questions because they cannot read Thai?
These are mainly “permanent tourists” - ie they are not officially immigrants - who stay here on a short-term visa. Just like with the Schengen visa, there is no language requirement (but there is a medical travel insurance requirement, funnily enough there is something in Dick's news report today that Thailand is also considering this). In contrast to Europe, a border visa run is sufficient here, crossing the border every x day/month, for Schengen that kite does not work because you are only allowed to stay in the area for 90 days out of 180 days.
A language exam is indeed required for a Thai permanent residence permit, also for naturalization to Thai. For both there are still a few steps and other requirements (thick bsnk account, extreme fees) and restrictions (including a quota).
Kara, that's a good question and I think we know the answer to that one; very few, (including me). But I also fail the Dutch integration test. Where do I actually belong 😉
For the enthusiasts, here is the link to the integration test, the test that I, and many full-blooded Dutch people with me, failed like a brick. I would say, put on a pan of Brussels sprouts and live it up…
http://educatie.ntr.nl/nationaleinburgeringtest/
Cor, the link you provide does not refer to the integration exam, but to the National Integration Test of the NTR (public broadcaster) in the year 2005. Could something have changed for the better in the meantime, based on the experiences gained?
You can, Cor there just across the river in Pinklao. That exam is not in the first place for Lek or Noi, but for the Turk and Berber/Moroccan families, who want to marry cousins in order to get them into the promised land with money scattering. In other words: to keep them out as much as possible, because of PVV, etc
Because to please the Thai who has done something about going to school, it's so dead simple: there's a basket with eg 200 questions - you get 20, 30 of those, I don't know. The Thai is used (you're kru/ajarn, aren't you?) to neatly memorize the answers, so that capacity is already there - and the integration course takes care of the rest. As you also know, the Thai always expects to succeed - if only because Dad pushes a bit or through extra training courses.
@think it over,
I think that the integration test misses its target due to the nature of the questions. This is also apparent from the fact that “full-blooded Dutch people” fail this test. I also understand that the government wants to limit family reunification for understandable reasons. I am not at all against an integration test, that is also in the interest of the newcomers. Only the questions are in my view absurd and have no relevance whatsoever. Moreover, someone can already read from the answers what the correct answer should be, while if an honest answer was given, he or she would tick the wrong answer. The question about the two men kissing on the terrace is a good example of this.
Moreover, most of the questions suggest that there is a clear idea of what Dutch culture encompasses and I have my doubts about that too.
Only know 1 Dutch person who can speak and write Thai.
The one who regularly reads Thailand blog knows his name.
His name is Tino Kuis. It would not be good if Thailand also had an integration exam
because then no 1 foreigner would succeed.
Except Tino.
It would not be wrong to have all those (former) Dutch people who have lived in Thailand for a long time do an integration, if they go back to the Netherlands (holiday or something) then you can be sure that no one will enter the country.
Because with today's youth, there are not many who can understand the old Dutch. Just look at all the abbreviations they use these days.
You can't do anything about that if you just live here.
As a Dutchman, I would have failed my integration exam because of questions that are completely ridiculous and I don't even know them. hahaha
Cor,
Agree with you 100%!! Whose brain have such stupid questions sprung from and who ó who relieves the integrator of this nonsense? Remember the discussion about the obligation to ned. national anthem, the chairman of the national orange association was a guest at the program “Pauw & Witteman”. Of course he was asked to recite the national anthem and to his shame he didn't know the lyrics (anymore).
Integration in itself is fine, but in a natural and realistic way. Incidentally, our country has had Chinese people for decades, who had/have never heard of integration but who managed to hold their own in our society and have not made it very far without exception. Has to do with their (Asian) mentality. Against my better judgement, I still hope that the current symbol of integration politics
will soon disappear again. But yes, apart from politics, it is now also big business, where a lot of money can be made.
I am apparently - what I thought before - a stranger in my own country. I was only able to answer one question (the one regarding the timetable of the railways) correctly, but then I also worked in the relevant department of the then still real Dutch railways. Just a little while longer and I - born and raised (and stayed way too long) in the Netherlands - will no longer be allowed to enter the Netherlands. If only Thailand still wants me…
The problem is that these kinds of questions and regulations are set up by… what did Wim Kan call this one again? "very skilled people".
But 15 years ago, stupidity was not much different
Looking for someone for my export to TH, who AND knew something about food (Bac food science), customs regulations and .. could speak Thai. So found someone. Moreover Bac business economics too).
The Ministry of Ec Affairs is even prepared to pay Hfl 20,000 in subsidy for salary via Senter.
However. everyone had counted outside the NL embassy, NL Employment Service and especially NL IND. After 10 months finally a “work permit” was completed, valid for 1 year and could not be extended! So it is assumed that a Thai is so hungry, with double HBO education, that she burns all her ships behind her for only ONE year of work in NL!
However, the ignorance is not over: in NL she received an MVV with the nationality: Taiwanese “on it. Thailand, with Bangkok = Taiwan, you didn't know it, but.. is a fact
Unfortunately, not everything has been looked at so thoroughly in NL, because.. the IND is not crazy!
For a scholarship to London. You need a visa to enter there. Back after that fair to Schiphol and…. refused entry into NL by the Marechaussee, because.. passport was Thai and MVV ticket was .. Taiwanese, so.. is fraud committed by her.
There was only one way to go: back to Thailand.
Black,
The story is about a Dutch integration course.
Maybe I've lost my way. I think it is about a kind of security that Thai people who generally come for a better life and / or money get.
Be well checked. That they have a course in the Netherlands that actually makes no sense is another story. Why do we have to integrate in Thailand? We only bring money and do not benefit from anything.
If we no longer meet the income test, you will simply no longer receive a visa.
It's that simple.
J. Jordan.
also a nice test question
listen to the following sound fragment of various Dutch dialects , from which province does the speaker come and what is he talking about ???
I became silent when reading (above)
What is going on in the Netherlands, it's getting crazier!
The integration exam is a multiple choice test. This test form is chosen when there are many candidates and when a better form, such as an interview with a panel, is not possible, because such an interview is expensive and difficult to organise.
In itself there is nothing against this form of testing, provided that the subject of the test is suitable for it. The test form is extremely suitable for testing ready knowledge, insight is already a lot more difficult.
The makers of the mc-test show that they are not familiar with the extensive literature on how to make an mc-test. This is evident from the question, which is sometimes not clear, and from the alternatives (answer options) given, where sometimes not one answer is clearly correct.
The so-called validity of the test is highly questionable. Validity means: does the exam test what it purports to test, namely whether someone is integrated in the Netherlands? The questions seem to have been chosen at random, with the wet finger, under the motto: we have to ask something.
I would like to point out, however, that it will not be easy to determine what you should know and be able to do as an established foreigner. The choice of the subjects and the questions about them will always be open to discussion.
As for the listening test. At the introduction, numerous experts have already pointed out the flaws of this method, but it was also chosen because of its convenience [read: low costs].
It therefore appears that the exam is intended to deter foreigners from coming to the Netherlands. The costs are already a high threshold anyway.
Why an integration course? We want a multicultural society in the Netherlands, don't we? With customs, views, religious fanatics who once again believe something different than always but that (which has already progressed nicely in the Netherlands) Christianity? With people who are free to follow their habits and views and impose on the native, right? With people who literally and figuratively speak a different language. And for those people, the Dutch who have not become expats (the non-refugee) must understand, and those who enrich society must be hugged (to get used to their foreign country), right?
What is multiculti, if they all speak Dutch without an accent, know better than the natives themselves where they got their habits -sometimes centuries ago- from, better find their right train (the one to Enschede or anywhere else in the Netherlands), in short are more “Dutch” than almost every native Dutch person? Then, HELP, the multiculti in the Netherlands is nowhere anymore! Then the natives are and remain the poor in spirit they always were.
.
Did - on the advice of Cor - do the integration course online and what do you think? Failed. I am just glad that I can no longer return to the Netherlands. Made a printout of the results to show the immigration service in Thailand that I can no longer return to the Netherlands….(hahahaha).
@Kara, welcome to the club of displaced Batavians. We know better than anyone that in the Netherlands today you don't get much work if you still pronounce the 'n' after every whole verb. That will be used against you. I'm going to feel more and more an asylum seeker in Thailand 😉
Moderator: This is very similar to chatting.