Thailand: 'Mass tourism and mail order brides'
In the Side note – the other k(r)ant, you can read two articles about Thailand. The first is about mass tourism in Thailand with the catchy title: 'Full-fed monster or ultimate paradise?' and the second article is about 'mail order brides' in the Netherlands. I think it's a pretty old topic, but oh well.
That Thailand is overrun by tourists is evident from the figures, from more than nine million in 2008 to an estimated thirty-six million this year. Although the cash register for Thailand is ringing quite a bit as a result, about twenty percent of the gross national product, comes from tourism, the well-known coin also has another side, according to the author of the article: overcrowded beaches, pollution, damage to nature, crime and impoverishment of Thai island culture.
In the article, what else would you expect, complaining expats have their say. And you guessed it: Thailand is too expensive and the visa rules are too strict. For some, this is a reason to leave for neighboring countries. Burma, Cambodia and Vietnam have a good chance of adopting the flag of Thailand, according to Irish expat Barry (66). You can read the full article here: dekantdrawing.nl/wereld/volgevreten-monster-of-ultiem-paradijs/
Mail order brides
"People around me had words of warning for me." This is how the article begins that once again puts the well-known clichés in the shop window. Eef Peerdeman, a 52-year-old Assendelfter has always been attracted to exotic women, so he married the Thai Atsada. Peerdeman has been married for nine years now, but according to him it is above all an eventful marriage: “Communication problems and (cultural) differences cause quarrels”.
I always get a bit cynical when I read stories like this. Ask Dutch couples about problems in marriage and you will hear exactly the same thing: incomprehension and communication problems. You don't have to marry an exotic woman for that, dear Eef.
Although you would also expect the other side of the Side drawing (they are proud of it after all), wifey Atsada does not speak….
Do you want to read the full article? You can do that here: dekantdrawing.nl/samenleving/ik-koos-een-vrouw-uit-thailand/
The stuffed monster…even my Thai girlfriend agrees!
Quite right that in a mixed relationship you can very quickly throw it at cultural differences as a source of relationship problems. But you do indeed also have that with Dutch couples.
The biggest disadvantage of a mixed relationship, especially when your partner has left for the Netherlands and lives many hours away by plane, is the argument that she left her entire family for you and gave up everything. Well, you can never make an equal argument against that argument in the eyes of your partner.
Oh yes. She gave up a lot, but also got a LOT in return.
A carefree existence, away from that endless heat, development opportunities, state pension accrual, pension, the best health insurance in the world…. and so I can go on and on.
If my wife would rather be with her family, I simply say: Do ist das Bahnhof, liebchen.
Strange my wife never uses that argument.
Never complains about being far from her family.
We also understand ourselves well in English, and we are getting better and better in Dutch.
Maybe it says something about your relationship, especially if it is said so quickly there is the bahnhof.
Curious what the leaf de Kantdrawing stood for, I read the following
Mission and vision
An independent, emancipatory cross-media platform (weekly + monthly + website) that holds the core values of journalism in high esteem. We offer in-depth background articles and opinion and focus primarily on Dutch society, in particular on issues of integration, cross-culturalism, extremism, human rights and freedom. We do this from a progressive-liberal vision of life, with an equal distance to all groups in society. Our core values are: free, courageous, inclusive.
Especially the piece of in-depth background articles and opinion caught my attention and I wondered where journalist Tieme Hermans got all his wisdom about Thailand. Otherwise he really needs to redo his homework!
misunderstanding and communication problems. Since 1977 business and since 1994 also a lot of private experience with Thai. I dare to conclude that if the cultural background is different, and if the language finesses are also lacking to talk out differences of opinion, there is a much greater chance of misunderstandings and therefore a break than with a NLe from approximately the same environment.
My Thai business partner and Uni-educated, fluent in English, has gained quite a bit of understanding for these kinds of misunderstandings and therefore ruptures during the various visits to NL and the surrounding area.
For a good communication and relationship, the following things are important, from very important to less important:
1 personality: empathy, good listening skills, forgiveness, etc.
2 approximately the same background in terms of occupation, age and education
3 language (sign language is also allowed)
4 least important: cultural background
If 1, 2 and 3 are correct, 4 hardly matters. If 1,2 and 3 don't sit right blame 4, that's the easiest..
Factors 1, 2 and 3 are necessary to overcome existing cultural differences (thinking and doing in many areas, from dealing with money, the importance of family, raising children, accepting authority from parents, bosses, politicians, role of men and woman) to proportions that you can build a happy relationship with your partner.
Why should multinationals really spend billions on cross-cultural training for their expat managers (before their deployment) if it is only about more empathy. Are these companies all that stupid?
Yeah, those companies are stupid, Chris. They could better spend that money on other things. Why? Because general cultural statements often do not apply to individual situations. What multinationals must teach their employees are general human virtues and qualities such as empathy, being able to listen, patience, showing interest, learning the language, etc. This applies within a culture and between cultures. Normals: Individual differences within a culture are greater than those between cultures. A manager with good personal qualities will also do well in another culture, even if he knows little about it, and a bad one will also do poorly in his own culture. Of course it helps if you know something about another country and people, but it is not necessary and not decisive.
Before I started working as a doctor in Tanzania for three years, the father who taught us Kiswahili told us that we should forget everything we had ever learned about Africa and Africans. It would prevent us from learning what is really going on, he said. And he's right.
No, Tino, those companies are NOT stupid. And of course they teach those run-out managers those traits you mention. And do you know why? Because those qualities are irrelevant or weakly developed in the country where they are going to work. And do you know what they call it: cultural differences.
Moderator: Tino and Chris, please stop chatting. Or continue by email.
Just an addition, Chris.
What I wrote is mainly about relationships between individuals. Geert Hofstede, who as you know has extensively studied and described the cultural dimensions and differences, also says that you should NOT apply his description of those differences to individuals but only to large groups. So you are right that people who deal with large groups in companies and schools, for example, benefit greatly from knowledge of cultural differences. But I maintain that good personal qualities (listening, learning, paying attention, not judging too quickly, etc.) are much more important.
“The research has shown that there are still major differences between Dutch and Chinese employees regarding cultural values: power distance, individualism and masculinity. These results agree with Hofstede's results. A large difference is also found for uncertainty avoidance, but the result is opposite to that of Hofstede. In addition, the Chinese and the Dutch both seem to look very far into the future.”
https://thesis.eur.nl/pub/5993/Den%20Yeh.doc
and if you want I can look up other studies for you.
Dear Tina,
Point 2 made me smile. Apparently I'm walking in the wrong place at the wrong times through Jomtien and Pattaya.
Unless grandpa takes his granddaughter to school!
- You're right, Louis. Maybe age isn't that important. There are excellent relationships between grandfathers and grandchildren, even if they come from different cultures.
Dear Harry, I have had a lot of private experience in Thailand since 2008 in the form of marriage. Certainly in the beginning, the language finesses, as you call them, were missing, but that has never stopped my wife and me from indicating exactly what was wrong or what I liked. As with any interpersonal contact, 3/4 is exchanged through looks, attitude, and what is not said.
If you then make some effort to immerse yourself in the culture of the other (in my case a Pol Pot war victim) you will really, very definitely, get at least as far as I have had in previous relationships with Dutch ladies . Or maybe even better, because the contrasts are so much clearer.
So I see absolutely no greater chance of breakup, or misunderstandings than with a western lady. In fact, I have never had as many problems with my current wife as I have with previous partners from the Netherlands, England, America, Spain, Germany and Canada.
It is precisely the initial need for conflict avoidance that Asian people have in common that provides a broad breeding ground in which conflicts can be massaged away without ending in a rift.
I completely disagree with your argument!
In the Netherlands, about 40% of marriages end in divorce. I have not stated “incomprehension and communication problems” as a 100% guarantee of failure, but “a much greater CHANCE of misunderstanding and therefore breakage than with a NLe from approximately the same environment”.
I still remember the comment of a Thai, when her Dutch husband was out of the car, after some less friendly comments.. "I have no choice".
Do you remember that lecturer? “1/3 are divorced, 1/3 live happily and 1/3 don't have the guts”. I hope for all of you, that you're in that middle 1/3.
How many divorces are there between Dutch people and Thai people living in the Netherlands or Thailand? If you have an answer to THAT, you can comment negatively on mine.
https://www.siam-legal.com/legal_services/thailand-divorce.php Divorce – Thai & Foreigner
The rapid exposure of Thailand to the world in terms of commerce and tourism has resulted in many marriages between Thai nationals and foreigners. Unfortunately, differences between cultures and language have strained some relationships and Thailand divorce has become inevitable in these cases.
Thailand divorce rate up to 39%
https://www.bangkokpost.com/news/general/1376855/thai-divorce-rate-up-to-39-.
also: https://www.stickmanbangkok.com/weekly-column/2014/11/the-challenges-of-thai-foreign-relationships/
My best guess is that probably only around 20% of the Thai female / Foreign male relationships I know are truly successful, where each partner really is genuinely happy. There are a few commonalities:
Usually expectations are different. The Dutch man wants a good harmonious marriage, love, sex. Money is secondary. The Thai wife has other objectives: 1 To provide financial support to the family and a future for any children from a previous marriage. 2 Trumping former fellow villagers with a super-large house in an impoverished village. “I made it,” she seems to say! Although Piet is certainly not the most beautiful man, he has money! Two different worlds! Does it clash? Most of the time! Sometimes things go well. For example, if Piet doesn't look too bad and the in-laws can support themselves a bit......