The marriage market for educated Thai women
A Facebook friend – 25 years old, school teacher, farmer's daughter, above average attractive, childless, unmarried and not a steady boyfriend either – complained on her account about the lack of potential suitors.
It wasn't really meant to be serious, but the undertone was. A calculation showed that there is only 73 suitable man available for every 1 Thai women. In that calculation, all men older than 50 dropped out (unfortunately, unfortunately), but also, for example, the sexual orientation of 33% of men would stand in the way of a relationship:
ผู้หญิงไทย มีทั้งสิ้น 33.3 ล้านคน
-ผู้ชายไทย มีทั้งสิ้น 32.1 ล้านคน
-เป็นตุ๊ดและเกย์(1ใน3) 10.6 ล้านคน
-อายุเกิน 50 ปี 7.5 ล้านคน
-อายุต่ำกว่า 20 ปี 6.5 ล้านคน
-พิการ 1 ล้านคน
-ติดยาเสพติด+ติดคุก+มีคดี 1.2 ล้านคน
-คงเหลือชายไทย อายุ 21-49 ปี 5.3 ล้านคน
ผลวิจัย ผู้ชายดีๆ ( พอมีฐานะ นิสัยดี ไม่ขี้เ มาไม่เจ้าชู้ )
From 1 20 ของชายแท้
0.265 ล้านคน
-หญิงไทย อายุ 21-49 ปีมีทั้งสิ้น 19.3 ล้านคน
เป็ น 1 : 73
หมายความว่า ผู้หญิง 73 คน เท่านั้น
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The Bangkok Post has also reported that Thai women are getting married at an increasingly later age and that the number of children is falling to less than two children per woman. The latter should of course result in a shrinking population in the not too distant future.
The Bangkok Post, of course, was talking about the situation in Thailand as a whole; in rural areas there are still relatively many girls who have a child at a very young age and usually get married at that age. I do not think that the Isaan will depopulate due to too few children, but possibly due to the migration to Bangkok and other parts of Thailand where employment is better.
Having children at a young age is usually disastrous for further education. For example, I know a girl who got pregnant and got married when she was 16-17. Fortunately, her husband had a job and she started a roadside restaurant with her mother-in-law so that she could take care of her daughter after school. Her income is probably less than the minimum wage, but together with her husband's wages, she can manage quite well. Now, 6 years later, she is expecting her second child because her marriage is going well.
Less fortunate was a girl who got pregnant when she was 14-15. She also married, but the man could not find a permanent job here and therefore left for Bangkok while she stayed in Ubon to finish her education. However, due to that legal separation, her marriage soon came to an end. Shortly afterwards she also left for Bangkok - aged 16 - to look for work, leaving her son behind with her mother. Sad of course, especially since it concerned an extremely smart girl.
But for the girls who do not become pregnant as teenagers and can therefore start a study, the problems lie in a different area: they often cannot find a suitable partner. It's probably because they're too critical: they don't want a man who's just a burden to them, especially financially. But of course there are not only financial considerations. For example, many Thai men smoke and drink too much in the eyes of the women. Furthermore, they sometimes use drugs and are not always reliable in the relationship.
But the inability of many young men to generate a good income probably plays the main role. And that is of course related to their lack of interest in continuing their studies when they are faced with that choice. Girls – despite the fact that they sometimes get pregnant and are still outnumbered by boys – go to university much more often than boys, at least that is the picture for the whole of Thailand. For the Isaan – where even more perseverance is needed to start a study – I think that the ratio is even more skewed. What may also play a role is the stimulating role of the parents, because in rural areas an educated daughter produces a higher sinsod than a daughter who has not studied.
A lack of money among the farmer's daughters who study in the city may also play a role in not finding a suitable partner: they have no money to go out and a visit to McDonald's with friends, for example, is usually not an option. So they mainly come into contact with farm boys they have no appetite for. At least not as a life partner.
But is the situation really that dire for the educated women? I will give some examples from my own environment. In addition to my aforementioned Facebook friend, I know two farmer's daughters who have become teachers. One of 27 years old married a childhood sweetheart a year ago, but only after he had found a steady job. They now have a son. However, the other 25-year-old teacher doesn't even have a steady boyfriend yet. The picture is also not much different with two second cousins of my wife, who both studied medicine: one has a permanent boyfriend, but the other is still looking. Another example is of a beautiful woman of 27 (with a permanent job) who, after dating a man of considerable means for 3 years, has put him aside, driving her mother to despair because she had already spread the word in the village that her daughter had become a rich man got hooked. The example does indicate that money – also in Thailand – is of course not everything.
I also know two daughters of my wife's friends who don't have a boyfriend yet, while they are both approaching 40 and have excellent jobs. But sometimes it's the man who doesn't want to get married. For example, a son of a friend of my wife has been dating for 8 years. Son and girlfriend are almost 40 years old and have excellent paying jobs, but even a threat on her part to find someone else has not yet softened him; he still prefers to stick to the bachelor life.
Are there opportunities for farangs here? Of course, but there is little interest among the women to leave Thailand permanently. And I certainly don't get the impression that they are desperately looking for a man, they keep making high demands on their future partner. Farangs therefore only have a chance if they are well marketed, although they may have an advantage over Thai men. Incidentally, the last two marriages this year that I heard of are between two Thai women and two Dutch men. All four were in their thirties, so that is in line with the upper limit of 50 years mentioned by my facebook friend. Moreover, in both cases they were very nice men. And the women? Extremely attractive.
Incidentally, the situation in the USA, for example, is not really different. The Journal of Marriage and Family: "Tthe primary reason why the US marriage rate has been declining is because there is a lack of economically-attractive men".
And: "Marriage is fundamentally an economic transaction”.
And: "Young women's educational levels on average now exceed their male suitors”.
HuffPost: "75% of all women in the United States would have a problem dating an unemployed man".
An important point is not mentioned and is often also the reason that there is no marriage and the man prefers to remain single, namely the sinsod, dowry. I sometimes see absurd amounts, for example someone with a normal job (20.000 to 30.000 baht per month income) who can cough up 500,000 to a million to legally be allowed to go. I know countless people who have to deal with these kinds of amounts and then they have to borrow from family or bank or employer to meet that nonsense where the man takes on obligations to repay for 20 years; and then hope that my wife is not cheating because morality is quite loose and that applies just as well to the women. So start at the beginning and forbid by law the
sinsod discriminatory measure and then you don't burden the, usually young man, with a mountain of debt. And ditto the nonsense of another sinsod when the woman remarries until even the grandmother in her 40s dares to ask sinsod.
You must be crazy to go into that sinsod nonsense.
I've been with my Thai girlfriend for a year and a half now and we're getting married next year.
Once that sinsod came up for discussion, whereupon I firmly explained that I am not participating in it and also argued why I am not doing so.
That message has come across clearly and the subject has been settled.
I'm 'good crazy'. Twenty years ago sinsod pays, I think $700. But the wedding party was much more expensive. The whole village had turned up. Later in the Netherlands again before the law. Thai women are very precious.
Tino,
I would like to hear your statement: Thai women are very precious.42 years ago. :=)
But indeed all in all an expensive investment, where the money could clearly have been spent better than seeing it disappear into the Thai swamp.
I hope many have fared better, but I have my doubts.
Still happily married after 42 years.
I married a girl from Isaan 41 years ago. When sinsod came up I got them
made it clear that this was not the case. It was never spoken about again after that. My wife and I are still happy together.
I think you have mentioned the essence of the skewed growth, in combination with better studying.
My 46-year-old friend, who somewhere already has a 17-year-old son, also started talking about sinsood, which I pointed out to her, and her age, and her son, and that sinsood no longer applies. I asked my previous Thai wife (who was also married before), and also a former girlfriend, and both stated that there could still be sinsood, of a maximum of 20.000 THB …
I pointed out to my girlfriend that sinsood is like a form of slavery, and if you pay the family, you become the owner, after which the discussion (for now ???) stopped.
This week I was having a meal with my wife with acquaintances from the Netherlands who were on holiday at a restaurant next to an Alcazar or Tiffany theater in Pattaya. Joined us was an old Thai woman who later turned out to be 65 years old. She was the manager of this show theater and, according to her own words, earned about 100.000 baht a month. He traveled a lot and had a lot to tell. She was alone and was always taken to and from her apartment by a driver. She preferred to be alone, because men could not be well tolerated as a partner because of their bad habits. Everything showed that this lady came from the better class and had received good education. Quitting work was not an option for her. Her lifestyle and spending pattern would then become such that there was little left to be happy with. Her pension would amount to 3800 baht per month, which is in stark contrast to what she had now. However, this lady needed alcohol and cigarettes to stay focused, according to her. She chose to live that way and I thought yes better than getting into a relationship, as she had done in the past and being unhappy in the process. As far as I am concerned, it is important that people can keep their own pants and invest in themselves through education and work. In addition, it is nice to find a good partner, but that is not the case for everyone. Know yourself and stand behind your choices and make something of it. There is plenty that can bring joy and happiness, if only you are open to it.
1 in 3 thai men is gay ??? according to the article
It says sexual orientation; is a somewhat broader concept.
ผู้ชายไทย มีทั้งสิ้น 32.1 ล้านคน 32.2 million Thai men
-เป็นตุ๊ดและเกย์(1ใน3) 10.6 ล้านคน ตุ๊ด toot (high tone) is a transvestite, เกย์ gay is a gay , together 10.6 million, so one in three men. Seems a wee bit exaggerated to me.
A few days ago, a 13-year-old boy shot and killed another boy and classmate who kept teasing him with 'toot', transvestite. Is quite sensitive.
https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/1818919/%E0%B8%BAboy-13-shoots-dead-classmate-who-repeatedly-bullied-him
A bill on same-sex marriage is now in parliament. Two men kissed in public there. Parliament Speaker Chuan launches an 'inquiry'.
In 1990 (yes, 20 years ago), recruits in the North were asked about their sexual behavior. In one group 8% had had sexual contact with men, in another district 26%. The truth must be somewhere in the middle, about 10-15%, I estimate, and has increased rather than decreased (due to more liberal sexual morality) in 20 years.
This means that 15% of men are not looking to marry a woman. And so the ratio in the marriage market is far from 1 to 1.
https://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/—asia/—ro-bangkok/—sro-bangkok/documents/publication/wcms_356950.pdf
That is a nice creative calculation to arrive at a non-existent surplus of women or a shortage of men.
There are more young men than women in Thailand. Only from the more mature age (somewhere in the 30-40 years) is there a turning point where there are more women than men. So the foreign man should marry an older woman, the older the better. 50+ or so. You really benefit Thai society from that.
Those younger women have, of course, preferably a man who is not too far from them: not very much older or younger. Some of the men lose weight because they are gay, but the number of women who lose weight because they are lesbians won't differ much, will they? What remains is a more or less equal male-female ratio. 1 male to 1 female.
But then comes the wish list: it's also nice if he speaks the language, you don't have to migrate and he can at least provide his own content. He must not be ugly or stupid, no socially undesirable behavior (drugs, etc.). Preferably, of course, a man where you are on the same level in terms of thinking and doing. That already limits the number of potential partners considerably. It goes just as well for the men, at least if you ask me. I see dozens of women passing by here and there, but one of which I think 'gosh, that's a potential candidate', that's still damn difficult.
Now it seems from research that men have a hard time if their wife is better educated or brings in more income. The man cannot then take on his natural leadership role or something. I don't believe in it myself, but who knows, this may disrupt the field somewhat. A lid fits on every pot, but that is still a lot of searching. It is already difficult for men, possibly just a little extra difficult for women to find their dream partner.
Sources: Thai Ministry and CIA Factbook:
– https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Thailand
– http://web.nso.go.th/en/survey/pop_character/pop_character.htm
I don't think the calculation is correct:
– there are relatively many homosexuals among men and in my experience with 13 years of university education (18-23 year olds) far fewer female homosexuals;
– Every year roughly 20.000 young males (between 16 and 26 years old) die in traffic accidents
– then there are boys who become monks for life.
I think the balance is really NOT 1 to 1 if you assume candidates on the marriage market.
Point 1, can you substantiate the % homosexuals with sources dear Chris? Otherwise this anecdotal evidence is worth nothing more than 'well if I look out my window…, down my street…' . I only find figures that about 8 percent are LGBT. https://www.nationthailand.com/national/30359180
Other figures would show that more Thai women slept with women than Thai men slept with men.” In the same survey 12 percent of men and 16 percent of women said they had slept with somebody of the same sex. ”
http://factsanddetails.com/southeast-asia/Thailand/sub5_8d/entry-3248.html
Without obvious evidence, I cannot assume a striking/significant ratio difference between LGBT men and women in Thailand.
Point 2, yes there are many deaths among young men, but there is still a male surplus among the young people.
Figures 2016 CIA factbook (those from other sources/measurements hardly differ)
Birth: 1,05 males to 1 females
<15 years: 1,05 men to 1 women
15-24 y: 1,04 males to 1 females
25-54 y: 0,98 males to 1 females
55-64 y: 0,89 males to 1 females
65+: 0,78 men to 1 women
Total: 0,97 males to 1 females.
It is therefore clear that men die earlier due to their behaviour, risks, etc. The turning point in the sex ratio is therefore seen in middle age (say around 40 years).
Point 3. Numbers? How much is that packing on the entire marriage market? How does that relate to men and women who deliberately do not enter into a relationship for other reasons?
Here we go again with that resource fetishism. Have you ever heard of OBSERVATION as a (scientific) research method? (I admit it's hard to observe Thai people living in the Netherlands but maybe you should trust others who live here a bit more or give them the benefit of the doubt)
I see 100 new students every year: 65-70% men, 30% women. For 13 years now. In addition, I see hundreds of students every year at parties and other student activities. In my classes (out of about 25 students there are about 17 women and 8 men, and of those men there is at least 1, sometimes 2 homosexual, of the women about 1. Those homosexual women also come out more openly because of other touching women in the classroom and outside, which the men never actually do.
If you only believe sources, you probably also think that less than 1% of Thai people are unemployed. Come and have a look, I'd say. By the way, I did not mention a percentage of homosexuals in my response………
Sources (plural) can be anything: newspaper, statistics office, scientific research, or a wide and diverse range of observations. 1 source is no source. I consider an observation in 1 class insufficient, only with a thick stack of such observations in various schools would I dare to attach value to it. As a teacher, I don't have to explain to you that 1 single anecdotal evidence is nowhere near convincing. I assume you also expect source citations from your students. Without a broader substantiation, I cannot simply assume that the number of gay men in Thailand has a serious impact on the dating pool of straight/bisexual Thai women.
1 class? 13 years every year 100 new students and several hundred a year outside my classes. Is 1300 young people, a reasonable sample I would say. And talking and discussing with these students about topics including the marriage market like the other day when they organized a blind date event. The vast majority of women in my class have struggled to find a boyfriend for 13 years. Some even become lesbians.
Yes, my students must also cite as many sources as possible, but I also ask that they be critical of their sources: which newspaper, website; and a confrontation of sources who apparently claim otherwise without bias. And think critically about what is going on and why. I miss that with you. Certain sources are apparently suspect by definition, others by definition give the truth. The strange thing about you is that sources from outside Thailand (with clearly certain interests) apparently tell the truth more than sources in the country. You are too stubborn and too inflexible. Perhaps a difficult man to live with. Let me tell you this:
1. nothing in Thailand is what it seems;
2. Little or nothing is mentioned in sources about many things and many more people than just the most important family;
3. there are thousands of cover-ups every day
4. crime journalism is weakly developed.
And so, in addition to 'sources', I would definitely include observations and 'off the record' facts in the analysis of Thailand.
'I see 100 new students every year: 65-70% men, 30% women… In my classes (out of about 25 students, there are about 17 women and 8 men and from…' So…
OBSERVATION is only a scientific method if you do it in a focused and complete way. Your method is more 'my impression is that..' For example, I don't believe that you can tell for 100 percent whether someone is gay or not because you don't ask, right? Observation only. The error rate in each test is between 10 and 20 percent. If you only observe, it is 20-40 percent.
Resources fetishism. I feel sorry for your students.
I'm actually quite sure that if your eyes and ears are good, you can say with 99% certainty that a Thai boy is homosexual by the way he walks, talks, carries his (wife's) bag and puts on his make-up (face nails).
ok…margin of error 1%.
Nice book for you under the Christmas tree:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Lie_with_Statistics.
what is this analysis and numerical calculations about?
Typically a Dutch trait to put everything in boxes.
Whether someone is gay, ladyboy, bisexual or whatever orientation, does not bring anything extra.
You could also calculate how many find out after 10 years that they are not gay, but bisexual, etc. etc.
By the way, the subject is: The marriage market for educated Thai women.
I think there are many women who are used to building a certain structure in their working and private lives.
Over time, a certain habituation occurs that can be quite disturbed by entering into a relationship.
I can imagine that many use an escort or have a sex buddy available on call.
That's handy and doesn't give any obligations, except for the financial aspect.
For example, Khun Tak is choking on the Tommy's and the bachelors-studied 'zobenik-non-women' between Monday morning and Friday afternoon.
Wednesday evening is always difficult, but yoga and so is also a hobby, isn't it.
They are not all 'like that' of course.
Will there be a partner for everyone, 1 on 1? No, but that difference will not be shockingly out of balance and the difference in the marriage market (say 30-40 years) will not really be due to the number of gays, lesbians, bisexuals, born in the wrong body, women or men who piously choose the faith and so on.
I think that what is mismatched is more to be found in social causes. Think of differences in acting and thinking, character training, work, social group, and so on. With a growing number of well-educated women and men who are lagging behind, you will then have to deal with women with a good job and men with a less good job. If the woman then does not want a man who is less well off, or the man does not want a woman who is higher on the social ladder (more salary, better papers, job with more prestige, etc.), things will go wrong. But on my coaster my mismatch doesn't come alarmingly far from 1 to 1.
Search and find, that's where the problem lies. I know that there are plenty of nice men and women in the Netherlands or Thailand. But finding someone who meets the wish list is difficult if you start to set (more) requirements. He/she must be able to laugh with you, think a bit like you, have no addictions or annoying behaviour, make time for you, not depend on you, be independent but also need you in certain areas and so on and so on, fill in the wish list to taste. And then you have to run into such a person again and try to make contact. Finding a good partner then becomes even more difficult.
I think you are implicitly and explicitly trying to apply a Western mindset to an Eastern situation. And that doesn't work at all.....
In a society that is very unequal and in which Thais actually only associate with people of their own kind, group and family, and also find their life partner there, climbing the social ladder through marriage is only for very attractive Thai women who have a young man of hooking up with wealthy origins and where the wealthy family allows. Forget all the stories about differences in behavior and thinking, differences in education, work, better papers, etc.
Search and find: still a number of marriages are arranged, so the family (in case father and mother) are sought and not the young woman/man. Even more common than you think (also in higher circles). I leave the judgment of whether that is good or bad to others. Divorce rates are high in many countries where young people choose themselves.
The problem is NOT seek and find.
The problem, I think, is too high expectations of relationships (whether or not created by the media and the film world: many Japanese young people no longer want a relationship because the sex is always less than in the movies) and too little willingness to compromise to achieve the to make and keep others happy.
In general, this problem occurs almost everywhere where more and more women are studying and have a higher education in recent years. Also eg in the Netherlands or Sweden and also Japan.
What rob.V adds at the end also plays a major role: many of the men who would score high in the eyes of these ladies do not want those ladies! Not because they are all gay, but because they prefer a submissive and well-caring woman. And so there are not many alternatives for the ladies.
And yes-it has already been mentioned, all those retarded Isanse traditions that many say you have to respect in order to comply with slands wisdom: that dowry, etc. My BKK friends talk about it the same way. Sign of great backlog. Daughters are seen just like cows - fattening and thus asking the highest price on the market.
I sometimes feel insecure with my Havo diploma and office job. I may not be a simple person, but I have no papers or job with status, no Benz at the door. Then I'm probably already losing weight for some women, hubby has to bring in at least half a ton a month or something with some women. I personally don't care if my partner has an average or very good job. I want to be on the same page in terms of thinking, but whether she has a bachelor's degree or a master's degree with a good position is irrelevant to me. I won't lose sleep over it if my other half puts more into the household pot than I do. Submissive? Brrr.. Didn't see me (and most women from here or over certainly don't either, those poor fellows who think Asians are submissive…55).
Just give me a beautiful, smart, strong, independent woman. May she come from Thailand, the Netherlands is also fine. But try meeting those nice, smart women. I've been looking around for about a year now, because being alone isn't for me, but I haven't come across any women yet who made me think 'wow, that's a nice lady!' . Know a lot of nice and sweet (Thai) women around my age (around 30) but without that click. Those are just friends. When I ask them why they are still single, the answer is that they have not yet met the right man (without the 'Thai men no good' myths).
I myself am still looking around, or should I have a T-shirt made? 'crazy, little smart, man looking for sweet, handsome, fun, intelligent, independent lady. Master no objection. Don't have Benz, but have a big heart.' or something. 555
Sinsod is also more and more for show in Isaan. When me and my late love got married it never came up. She said: you largely paid for the party in the Netherlands (it was a very reasonable budget, I'm not going to spend thousands of euros), so I pay here in Thailand (most of it), you also have to advance some money for Sinsod to show, but we will pay that back after the party. No sooner said than done. And I hear I'm no exception.
I read a lot here about the lamentations of those women. The girls in the bars also know how to make the men bad through and through. I sometimes wonder if there is one more or less normal man walking around in Thailand?
The funny thing is that we are still waiting for the stories of those men because no one seems to know those versions ??
Otherwise I see nice normal and courageous men in the Isaan who have to make do with a drinking smoking and unfaithful woman …….
To be honest, I'm a bit tired of those victim stories of those women……he drinks he butterfly and he hit……Of course they are all angels.
A dowry is only a symbol in the better circles. A traditional play and therefore no longer relevant.
The posting is about the 'marriage market for college-educated women'. Now I'm not exactly sure what the writer means by studied: high school, college (bba, mba, ph.d). And completed or not?
Let me start by saying that at university and at home I only deal with women who have completed at least a BBA degree (sometimes only in Thailand, sometimes also MBA and Ph.D abroad). In my living environment – I estimate – about 10% have completed a university education (often Rajabaht universities). Let's say and write 1 of my Thai female colleagues (all between 25 and 40) is married and then not even officially before the law. A few are lesbians and the vast majority are single, whether or not after a failed marriage. The same pattern applies to the women in my area.
There are three developments that I believe are impacting the marriage market for college-aged women:
1. increasing materialism or consumerism: a marriage must offer guarantees for a sustainable life with forms of materialism that are at least the same as one enjoys now. You can go to bed with any man and the possibilities are unlimited since the advent of the internet and dating sites and apps.
2. women's increasing self-confidence. Although my female colleagues at work are quite submissive to management and higher (and never really criticize) they are quite critical about things in a personal conversation. This also applies to those colleagues who have studied and even lived abroad for years. I estimate that they are also critical when it comes to possible partners.
3. Separation (perhaps a growing separation) between the long-standing values in Thai society (parents look for a partner, they know what is good for you, do not marry out of love but out of concern/compulsion for offspring, possible disapproval of self-chosen partners, the standard male/female pattern in work and household) and the Western romantic ideal of marriage. It strikes me that the first marriages of the divorced women (including my own wife) are actually all arranged by the parents. People do not want to make that mistake again and they are eagerly looking for romance and equality that seems to be lacking in Thai men. Then no marriage. Better no relationship than a bad relationship. Sex (sometimes accompanied by forms of reward such as money, car, paying bills and debts) and relationship are becoming increasingly disconnected, as is almost everywhere in the world.
If Western 60+ are able to find partners 10-20 years younger and the graduates are not, then that says something about their self-esteem.
If they really want a relationship, water will be added to the wine and if they don't, they run an increased risk of poverty as soon as they no longer have a job.
A relationship is therefore not necessarily love, but weighing options that work for both sides in the long run.
In NL and BE you have the luxury to choose because in the end society ensures that you can make ends meet in bad times. In a non-welfare state it is better for you to make your own choices about what is best for the future.
Well-to-do families do, just like in NL (especially in the past), strategic marriages and a concubine or concubine can be the consequence of this.
My neighbor across the street is in such a position….since received 24 million baht together with his wife and as an extra a new villa from his parents.
Perfect start of a new future.