The culture, which created “Evil man from Krabi”.
The alleged assault and mistreatment of a Dutch tourist in Krabi cannot be called rape, according to the Thai Minister of Tourism, because she knew the man. Unfortunately, this distorted point of view is not the opinion of just one individual, but stems from old-fashioned cultural ideas in Thailand.
Andrew Biggs devoted a column to it in the Bangkok Post last weekend in an attempt to interpret that statement. It goes something like this:
Thai soap opera
On Thai TV there was/is a popular soap opera called “Chamloei Rak” or “Prisoner of Love”. We call it a soap opera, but the Thai call it "smelly water" and given the often melodramatic storylines of this drama, I can agree with the Thai name.
Early in the story, the beautiful protagonist is imprisoned, tortured and raped by the male protagonist. So what does she do? Does she call the police? Does she buy a hedge trimmer to attack the man and castrate him?
I do not think so! With beautiful violin music playing in the background, you can see the lady staring out into the night sky. She decides to make it her life's goal to turn this man into a good person.
Krabi
So much for this soap opera, I will come back to it later in this story, because of course you want to know how it ends. I was in Krabi this week for the annual Andaman Festival, the official start of the high season there. Amid all the fireworks and grilled chickens, a dark cloud has appeared in the sky in the form of the alleged rape of a 19-year-old Dutch tourist in July of this year.
The case
The story is well known: the woman celebrates her birthday at the Chang Beer Bar in Ao Nong with her boyfriend and a Thai man. The friend goes home early and the Thai man later offers her a ride to her home. However, the woman ends up in a hospital and declares to have been raped and assaulted. The Thai man then goes on the run – as Thai men are used to doing when they have been up to something – but later turns himself in. He is charged, but the judge releases him on bail.
Evil man from Krabi
This turn of events enrages the girl's father and he makes a music video called "Evil man from Krabi". You see the man in a long coat and hat walking through a forest with a rifle in his hands. His anger is completely understandable.
The Krabi police counter-attacks and also shoots a video clip called “The truth of Krabi” which so far has less than 100 hits on Youtube, while “Evil man from Krabi” is already close to a million hits. In this respect, the sire is the clear winner.
Minister
What followed next was almost as shocking as the crime itself. The Minister of Tourism, Chumpol Silpa-Archa, makes an outrageous remark that has spread all over the world. There was more to it, he said very consciously, than one might think. The girl knew the man, had even been found with him in a restaurant on the day it happened and so…. it cannot be classified as rape. How can such a senior official give such a response? Is he living in a chauvinistic dreamland or is something else going on here?
In the West you have "consensual sex", so the two partners both want sex and we know "rape". So you agree to the sex or you have sex against the will of one of the partners. If only all things were so black and white in Thai culture, because it has something else that lies somewhere in the middle of the aforementioned expressions. That middle is called "plum," pronounced like the English word for plum.
Gringo: plum is difficult to translate into Dutch in the context of this story. It's something banal and that's why I chose the equally banal phrase "fuck a lady"
Conversation
I first heard the word about 15 years ago when I was talking to a Thai colleague about a soap opera that was popular at the time. In every soap opera there is a scene in which a woman gets a turn, just like other ingredients such as shocking images, violence, a lot of screaming, a glimpse of naked flesh and of course sex.
“The man in the series wants to set up a business with a woman, so he's going to fuck her,” I was told.
I had no idea what he was talking about.
“Fucking”, he clarified, “that means he takes her and sleeps with her”
“That just means having sex, doesn't it?” I asked.
“Well yes and no. Giving someone a turn is more than that. He forces her to have sex with him”
"So it's rape!"
“Oh no, that's khom kheun”, he replied with a smile, “but giving her a fuck is something else….”
“Stop that expression. You tell me he forces her to sleep with him, but he doesn't rape her? Does he offer her money then?”
“Oh no, that's prostitution,” he replied sternly.
“Of course, you can't. Okay, he fucks her and then what?
“Now that he's fucked her, a kind of relationship has developed, making it easier to continue doing business!”
It did take me some time to figure out that fucking is, in fact, a powerful temptation. The woman indicates, in whatever way, that she likes a man, but socially speaking she cannot take the next step towards a relationship. A romantic Thai man takes over the signals and forces the woman into sex, paving the way for a relationship.
"So it's consensus?"
"Difficult question! Although the woman did not consent to the sex, now that it has happened, a relationship has developed, one way or another, something the woman may have wanted from the start.
“So now we have the scandalous situation in this soap opera, where a woman is forced to do business with the man who raped her…, sorry, fucked, in the interest of not losing face”
“Oh, is that what you heard in my explanation? That nicely illustrates the gaping gulf between Thai and Western culture.”
Summary
To summarize, there are two separate verbs in the Thai language. If the man knows the woman then he will fuck her (to plum), if he is a total stranger then it is khom kheun (rape).
The second has a dark, ominous meaning, it is an attack on a helpless woman, for example by a sex maniac, who appears from the bushes.
That's why Chumpol Silpa Archa and others make comments like "she knew him, went to a restaurant with him, so it can't be called rape." The man is not a fool, as despicable as this line of thinking may seem, it comes from the context of a society that defends the act on the basis that the attacker knew the lady in question.
Logic
I can't follow the logic of this mindset, that it allows a man to fuck a lady based on a wink or other bodily signal. That's an age-old patriarchal culture, where a flirty woman can still pay a high price.
And… what about that poor woman from “Prisoner of Love”, who had decided to turn the man who had fucked her into a good and sensible person? Well, she managed to change him by making him see what he had done wrong. He realized what a good woman she was and they fell in love. And…. they lived happily ever after!
I said it before, it's not soap, it's stinking water!
This way you keep the number of rapes very low, of course, since a large part of the rapes is between people who knew each other (well to a little). Far greater than the number of "total stranger rapes a random person" incidents.
You wonder what those who dismiss plum as “less bad” would think if someone (themselves?) were forced to have sex against their will by either a man or a woman. Would they also say “oh well, I wasn't raped because I met my attacker before”?
That's exactly what I mean, Rob V. It's the perpetrator, usually a man, who dismisses the rape as "just plum." that is no basis for establishing a cultural difference.
Andrew Biggs is a good columnist and knows Thai a degree better than I do. I didn't know the word plum. According to the dictionary, 'plum' means 'to fight' for anything, eg to force your son to brush his teeth. 'Ploegplum' means 'to use force for an attempted rape'. 'Khomkheun' is rape with penetration. The official report says: 'ploegplumkhomkheun' for rape.
I went to two websites and read 50, often very powerful, responses. The vast majority indicated that 'plum' and khomkheun' in this context were the same and equally bad although khomkheun usually involves more violence. Then I spoke to my teacher and three more people who confirmed this story. Moreover, they indicated that it did not matter whether it was an acquaintance or a stranger. (Assault and rape happen in the Netherlands and here usually by more or less acquaintances, although if they are acquaintances, people may more often remain silent. That could also explain why 'plum' is seen as less serious.)
Everything else I read and heard showed that in those annoying soap operas, 'plum' is often used as a euphemism by real macho men and adolescents to soften the word 'rape'. Women think completely differently about this, as is clear.
The trap Andrew fell into is this one. He confuses the opinion of a number of macho men, who look down on women, from the 'higher circles' with Thai culture as a whole. I might add that all Thai newspapers lectured Mr. Chumpol and stood up for the victim. The idea that Thais in general don't mind assault and rape when it's done by someone they know seems like a nice story, but it goes a long way.
@Tino: You can't ignore Andrew's clarifying explanation of the linguistic difference between "plum" and "khomkeun". So the difference is there.
For me - as well as apparently according to public opinion in Thailand - there is no difference, rape is rape, whether it is done by someone known or unknown, but what matters is what will happen in a lawsuit (if there is one). ) happens.
Judges and senior civil servants are generally not so progressive in thinking and the difference in nuance may well play a role, even be decisive. Also think of the statement of the police commissioner of Krabi: "The legislation and its interpretation in Thailand is simply different than in the Netherlands (the Western world)"
Unfortunately, I fear that the case will eventually end with a fizzle for the perpetrator.
@ Gringo I assume that Thai law distinguishes between assault and rape and has a different penalty for that. But the law will not contain any provision that exempts an acquaintance of the victim from prosecution. The only thing that matters in court is whether the offense can be legally and convincingly proven, and that can be difficult in rape cases.
Your conclusion that the case will end with a fizzle seems to me to be drawn too quickly. Also because Thailand is terrified that tourists will not only avoid Krabi but the country itself because of all the negative publicity. Vietnam and Myanmar are becoming formidable competitors.
Can you explain what the police commissioner's statement meant? Does it relate to bail? But we don't have bail in the Netherlands. What is he referring to?
Maybe you're right, Dick, I'm too quick with a conclusion, but read the article in this link:
http://asiancorrespondent.com/91901/thai-officials-damage-control-in-foreign-tourist-rape-case-backfires/
It is a long overview of the damage control by the Thai government and reading that does not make you happy.
I have a hard head about it, but I sincerely hope that I am not right and that the perpetrator gets his deserved punishment.
@ Gringo Dear Gringo, I read the article you recommended. Fine story, but it contains no information about the attitude of the Public Prosecution Service and the court in rape cases and in this case also serious assault.
So let's not jump to conclusions. Mr Jordaan may claim in a response that the perpetrators always get away with it, but he does not provide a shred of evidence for that claim.
Gringo What you can say for sure is that the way the article defines 'plum' has been translated excellently by you as: 'giving a woman a turn'. That's completely in the spirit of the article. On the other hand, the majority of Thais and all women think that 'plum' and 'khomkheun' hardly differ from each other. I challenge you to approach a number of Thai women and ask what they think is the difference between 'plam' (falling tone) and 'khomkheun' (low, rising tone) (same, same or different) and post it on the blog. report.
I believe you unconditionally, Tino, that public opinion sympathizes with the victim and disapproves of the actions of the police.
It will soon be about how those machos of the elite you mentioned (to which judges may also belong) react.
Also read the link I placed with Dick, a shocking event for me!
If you think Andrew has stepped into a trap, then I'd say don't challenge me, challenge him!
Moderator: Insults are not allowed and generalizations are not allowed. Not every Thai thinks that way about women.
Dear editors,
I understand that you may not post my comment.
That was written out of emotion. Your article says enough.
It is common practice here to get angry at a Thai because he is not doing something right
and you react to it, is life-threatening. I have been living in Thailand for 7 years now and have like this
I gradually learned from my wife that I have to think twice and swallow again before I react to anything.
You read it every day in the Thai newspapers. Few have been shot for less.
Of course you don't have to post my last comment either.
J. Jordan.
Does my first story (without offending and generalizing anyone) still contain the warning that women or girls who go on holiday to Thailand
have to take into account that the tourism minister of Thailand has completely different views on rape than ours. According to the minister, going out to dinner with a Thai man already entitles him to an involuntary sex adventure.
It is even recommended (if you are with 2 women) to get into a minibus
from a taxi company and the driver also tries to rape you on the way.
Has all been in Thai newspapers. I'm not making it up.
Those customers normally all get away well.
Free on bail or not prosecuted at all.
It is best to go with a group tour and stay close to everyone.
Or don't go to Thailand at all. Perhaps the best thing for the minister of tourism, who is just busy trying to make everything right again.
J. Jordan.
@ Jordaan, I agree with your advice to female tourists not to just go out for a drink or go with Thai men (but that applies to every country).
The rest of your argument and especially your call not to go to Thailand is absurd in my opinion. With this you also punish thousands of benevolent Thai people who live off tourism. Should every Thai pay for a sick mind (rapist) and an old-fashioned and short-sighted tourism minister?
Think carefully before you shout something and don't just react from your emotion.
@ Jordaan In my news archive there are indeed some reports about taxi drivers who have assaulted their passengers – Thai passengers that is. You write: 'Those customers normally all get away well. Free on bail or not prosecuted at all.' As a journalist I have learned to report facts, so I ask you: please give me the facts, names and back numbers. But I suspect I can wait a long time for that.
A simple question. If it happened to the daughter of this genius of a minister, do you think the perpetrator would have a long life? I'm afraid he won't make it to court.
Dear Mr van der Lugt, Of course I'm not a journalist. I don't write down everything either.
I live in Thailand. Read local coverage. Enjoy reading you too
articles and store everything (as far as possible) in the upper room.
Because of this I have built up a personal opinion.
If I read an article from the “blog” and I feel the need to respond, I do so.
It is for the editors to judge.
I would also like to say that journalists are of course taught to report facts but
you will not have to give them a living who also do quite colored.
JJ
that thai minister has the IQ of a field mouse. I wonder what he had to pay to get this position and also what his reaction would be if it had been his own daughter.
jantje
Received a high visit last week because of the rape case and if I wanted to respond to that towards the Ned. media, how the fork is actually in the stem here. However, their version was very different from the father. His daughter had hooked up with this Thai man and she sent her boyfriend home, probably to have sex with this Thai man. Both had drunk a lot, and there was sex with both consent, but this got out of hand because the Thai man was quite demanding. The Thai police will take this case seriously, and the perpetrator can count on a heavy punishment, according to I was informed, because tourism will undoubtedly be hit by this.
The staged case against our compatriot Peter A. also bothered them because they had gone through all the details. Nothing special or criminal had happened, but Thailand and Pattaya in particular were completely misrepresented by program maker Alberto Stegeman of SBS 6. Legal action is being considered against the program makers in the Netherlands. Peter A. has been acquitted and has his pass. and bail has now been returned, and the matter was settled with a storm in a teacup.
The murderer of former Rabo director Jules Odekerken was also released on bail at the time and was sentenced to death after 7 years, but may have gone into hiding across the border. provide power. Only after the intervention of Foreign Affairs and the Queen did something about this happen in Thailand. Her brother was not bailed and sentenced to life in prison. I attended almost all these cases out of sympathy for the family, but the main perpetrator's ex-wife was miraculously acquitted. This will undoubtedly also have to do with her large wealth and 3 lawyers, but the family has fortunately decided to not to stop the case, and continue to fight on appeal. It's not what you know, but who you know in this country. It goes without saying that there is a price tag attached to it.
@ Colin de Jong How nice that you had a visit. How high actually? This so-called high visit had a different version of what happened in Krabi. So this visit was not only high, but it had been peeking through the bushes to see what the Dutch and the Thai man were doing. How else could this high visitor know what had really happened? And that was what the high visit came to tell you especially. For the purpose of spreading the word? What an honor that must have been.
My dear Colin, there was a time when I believed in fairy tales, but those are long gone and this story strikes me as a fairy tale. Only a fairy tale ends with a Happy Ending and that does not apply to your story.
When I continue to read your story about Pattaya, I wonder if it wouldn't be better to live in Spakenburg, because very terrible things happen there. I think that would be better for your peace of mind. And I don't understand what those things have to do with the rape in Krabi.
You're lucky that the moderator didn't cut your response, because those horrible things are very off-topic, as the moderator always knows how to formulate it so civilized. I myself have another word for it.
This was broadly the tenor of my earlier - rejected - response (I had pressed the wrong 'reply' button and therefore it would not have been clear who I was responding to). I also wondered who that 'high visit' was and who was meant by 'them' and 'their'. Without explanation/clarification it is a case of (own) patting on the back and adds absolutely nothing to the discussion here.
Dear Mr Van der Lugt,
Thank you for your politically correct response.
It also surprised me that Mr. De Jong's reaction came through the censorship of Thailandblog.
We know that it is forbidden to write too negatively about the Thai legal system.
I also think that the family of Jules Oderkerken is very impressed by your reaction.
You write “When I continue to read your story about Pattaya, I wonder if it wouldn't be better for you to live in Spakenburg, because very terrible things happen there. I think that would be better for your peace of mind. And I don't understand what those things have to do with the rape in Krabi. “
I think you can understand Mr. Colling's scrutiny of the legal system in Thailand.
But I agree that this is politically incorrect.
This sentence really says everything that is wrong with Thai society: "The Thai police are going to take this case seriously, and the perpetrator can count on a heavy punishment, so I was told, because tourism will undoubtedly get a blow from this."
It is implicitly stated here that the case was not taken seriously in the first instance. The perpetrator can still count on a heavy punishment, not because he has committed a terrible crime. No. Because he has put the economic interests of tourism in Krabi at risk.
Moderator: It doesn't say who you're responding to.
I am surprised that some expats are still surprised that standards and values in Thailand are on a completely different level than at home. Ancient patriarchal culture, yes! Thailand has only started to develop very recently and still has a long way to go in many respects.
We are now waiting for the posts with the insights of 'the Thai woman' from readers who, in their supreme naivety, have consulted their bargirl about this subject 😉
I might ask my girlfriend, the difference between plum and khom kheun haha. But I think I know the answer.
I happened to be in Thailand when that video clip was in the news, I discussed it with her because she asked me what it was about. She felt sorry for the victim, but otherwise she had heard little about it. That's also something typical, such a video clip goes all over the world, but in Thailand you don't reach most people because they don't spend much time on the news etc.
About norms and values. We usually laugh ourselves to death at the police. Getting caught for driving without a driver's license, tapping off 300 baht and just moving on, etc. But in cases like this it becomes painfully clear that the knife also cuts both ways.
About the case itself, the entire reasoning of the Thai Minister of Tourism is of course ridiculous and I hope they throw the perpetrator in the Bangkok Hilton for a very long time. But as J. Jordaan and Peter have already touched on, I don't understand where your mind is in the story if, as a 19-year-old woman, in a strange country, with a wild stranger, you just sit down in a bar and drink and having a stranger take you home alone while (according to reports) you are under the influence. I also don't understand the role of the friend in this that you just allow that. But that's always an afterthought and it's terrible that this happened to her, of course. But the moral of the story is that there can often be something else behind the famous smile and you also have to take good care of yourself in Thailand.
@ BA, good that you also touched on the point of double standards. There are expats who justify the corruption in Thailand (part of the country) but when this happens they stand on the back legs. That is called hypocrisy.
@Kees: There is a difference between being surprised about something and worrying about something. I'm glad this terrible case is making a stir and putting pressure on the legal system (or what is supposed to be one) to cover up the matter.
Dear Kees, I assure you that the standards and values in Thailand and the Netherlands are on the same level. In both countries there are people who do not adhere to these norms and values and that is why in the Netherlands you also have police, courts and prisons (and miscarriages of justice). But it is true that the justice system in Thailand fails more often, much more often.
And I absolutely don't understand why it would be naive to talk about it with 'their bar girl'. Don't bargirls have brains and opinions?