Dr. Erwin Kompanje (clinical ethicist at Erasmus MC Rotterdam) wrote a candid column on his personal blog. “An expected death at an advanced age or a corona death?” was the title and in it he put the Covid 19 mortality into perspective, but above all he emphasized the humanitarian disaster that is unfolding due to the measures taken.

The text prompted TV producer Flavio Pasquino to visit and interview him. He picked up Erwin in his hometown of Barendrecht and drove him to his favorite place, the Europoort. A black-backed gull colony nests here. The place breeds new gulls but is also the final resting place for many weak gulls.

The column was filmed in a “Spoken Word” format, after editing the initial web text (www.kompanje.org ) and forms a philosophical manifesto for the wider perspective that looks beyond the ICU shortage and short-term mortality rates. Let's hope there will be more critical voices from this intellectual level.

Video: 'Corona policy is inhumane'

Watch the video here

https://youtu.be/rlnfnsFz6c8

57 Responses to “'Corona policy is inhumane', says Clinical Ethicist Dr. Erwin Kompanje (video)”

  1. wim says up

    This concerns the Netherlands. I don't know if the word 'corona policy' is correct. It seems right to me that there is no policy at all, but that from a kind of panic, virologists, RIVM etc were suddenly blindly followed by the government. Now that they don't know anymore, it seems impossible for the politicians to bring the situation back to normal in a few clear steps. Small steps are announced very frenetically in a schoolmasterly manner, De Jonge talks about 'apps' and 'dashboards' and meanwhile unemployment is shooting up and economic growth is falling. I don't see any policies. Only panicked fiddling and incompetence in execution.

    • Lilian says up

      Yes, it's strange in that Netherlands. In other countries life has continued quite normally

      • Rob V says up

        I assume this is sarcasm Lilian? Considering many countries from the Netherlands, to Thailand and America to China where all kinds of measures were taken (lockdowns, travel restrictions, social distancing, people who lost their jobs etc etc). You can call all those sudden measures 'panic fiddling' or insufficient preparations (while there have been warnings about pandemics for years). In fact, few countries had a well-developed scenario ready or if it didn't cost too much (think of America where some preparations were cut back even before the Corona outbreak).

        https://apnews.com/ce014d94b64e98b7203b873e56f80e9a

    • Maarten Binder says up

      Government behavior is just as erratic as the behavior of a virus. You would almost think that the government is a virus.

  2. Rob V says up

    Quote 1: “The newspapers stated that 9 out of 10 are over 65s, CBS statistics mainly show elderly people aged 80 or more (..) old people in the final stages of their lives (..) people in their last phases of life who them without participation”.

    How long do the elderly live? The average life expectancy of people in the autumn of their lives:
    65: 20,3 years (male 19, female 21,5)
    70:16,3 years (male 15,1 , female 17,3)
    80: 9,2 years (male 8,4, female 9,9)
    90: 4,2 years (male 3,8, female 4,4)

    Source:
    https://www.staatvenz.nl/kerncijfers/levensverwachting

    Of course we can choose to do little, then there will be 2,5 to 3x as many deaths among the old people (See Sweden compared to neighboring countries). If we choose that as an old person with only 10-20 years to live, it is best to retire earlier. If we conclude together that that is acceptable, fine. But it is prudent to paint the picture that the people who die from the virus have already almost faced death.

    Quote 2:
    “Is there a difference between corona and the flu?”
    The answer is simply yes, there are differences (and similarities). A difference is, for example, the damage that occurs elsewhere in the body, such as infections via the bloodstream.

    https://m.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20200424_04933526

    Yes, it is certainly important to weigh up all kinds of aspects: the life expectancy and quality of life of risk groups and individuals, the economy, society (social interaction) and so on. That's difficult, and that trade-off can swing in a different direction at any time as to what's right (or rather, what's the least harmful overall, what's acceptable to those involved). I find both total panic with very heavy permanent measures irresponsible, but also dismissing all this as 'it's just a kind of flu, death is part of it, and it's mainly some old people who die a little earlier'.

    • Your reasoning is wrong Rob. You do not take into account the lost years of life of care avoiders and the postponement of operations due to corona.

      Hundreds of thousands of lost life years:
      It is unclear how many deaths the loss of regular care has led to in recent months. It concerns 100.000 to 400.000 life years lost, research agency Gupta wrote in a report this week. Far more than the 13.000 to 21.000 healthy years saved by caring for covid patients.
      https://gupta-strategists.nl/studies/het-koekoeksjong-dat-covid-heet

      Hospital care for COVID patients has saved an estimated 13 to 21 healthy life years (QALYs) in the Netherlands. This is evident from the report 'COVID goes cuckoo' by Gupta Strategists. The number of healthy life years gained is little in relation to the cost: an estimated 100 to 400 healthy life years have been lost due to the cancellation and postponement of regular care, such as care for people with cancer, heart failure, diabetes or intestinal diseases. The financial pressure is also disproportionately high: the cost of COVID care per year of healthy life gained is 100 to 250 euros. That is up to a factor of three higher than what is generally accepted.

      • This shows once again that there was no policy from our government, but panic football. In addition, the media had focused the cameras on the covid patients and, of course, Rutte does not want images on TV with terminally ill corona patients in overcrowded hospitals. The fact that people subsequently die at home because they do not receive regular care does not matter to Rutte, because there are no cameras there.

        • Johnny B.G says up

          Perhaps now the discussion will start as to whether it is normal to take care of the sick until the end of the day.
          Medicine is nice, but as soon as a value is set against it, choices may have to be made and I am sure that this discussion will not be held in the Netherlands for a long time.
          In Thailand it is somewhat clearer in that regard. Get everything out of life until you are 70 and the rest is just waiting to see if it still makes sense and the latter depends on how the family ties are.

          • Rob V says up

            In the Netherlands, we regularly learn how long treatment is justified. Google But and you come across pieces in newspapers and TV channels from 2012, 2016, 2018 etc. Turns out to be a difficult discussion, while the Netherlands is already further along than take Germany:

            “The Germans also have a different care culture than our country. Continuing treatment to the last gasp is much more commonplace than in the Netherlands, where the discussion about how far a patient is willing to go is much more established. ”

            - https://www.ad.nl/binnenland/duitse-ic-baas-nederland-moet-voor-veel-meer-ic-bedden-zorgen~aca7ea29
            - https://nos.nl/nieuwsuur/artikel/2263187-de-laatste-levensfase-goed-sterven-is-ook-belangrijk.html

            In Thailand, on the other hand, they are faced with the problem / fact that as soon as someone can no longer independently visit a healthcare provider, access to healthcare decreases rapidly:

            ““At age 55-65, most people are able to travel independently to health facilities. But, as they grow older, they become frail and start to have health conditions that prevent them from traveling to health facilities independently. Once the elderly people become dependent and need others to bring them to health facilities, the frequency of using services at health facilities generally drops. This trend is actually stronger among poor elderly, particularly those in rural areas and those who do not live with their adult children,” 

            Source:
            https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2016/04/08/aging-in-thailand—addressing-unmet-health-needs-of-the-elderly-poor

            That is certainly clear, but is it desirable for people to die because they have no or insufficient access to a hospital?

            • HarryN says up

              Indeed Ronald the MSM is fully employed by the government and are therefore not reliable. For example, there was recently an article in the AD; Corona hits harder at intensive livestock farms!!! The investigation into this had yet to start, but the AD already came up with this "big" news. Of course we never heard anything more about it.

          • Johnny B.G says up

            In many countries it is not normal and maybe the Netherlands should also get rid of it.

            • Tino Kuis says up

              Sorry about that Nazi and Stalin, Johnny BG. I was angry. Society should not have a say in who receives which care and who does not. That is between doctor and patient.

        • Tino Kuis says up

          Come on, Peter, by bringing in Rutte and cameras you are politicizing and clouding a valid discussion. We don't get anywhere with a 'they do everything wrong and I know everything better'. Nobody could have foreseen that regular care would decrease by 30-50%. To fix that is the responsibility of doctors and hospitals.

          • It certainly has to do with political choices, which is why you have to involve politics. Rutte himself says that he is responsible, the RIVM also says that. There are already such huge waiting lists in healthcare that there is talk of a reservoir of patients.

            Ernst Kuipers, chairman of the Erasmus MC board, says that they have done it wrong. He also agrees in essence with Gupta's report: “That the number of healthy life years lost is at least of the same magnitude as the number saved, with the possibility that the number of years lost is significantly greater, I agree. well."

            He points to the data from the Cancer Registry, which shows that the number of diagnosed cancer patients is normally around 3500 per week. In the past two months, there were only 1700 per week. “So that has been halved, and as far as I know covid is not a cure for cancer.”

            https://nos.nl/nieuwsuur/artikel/2334774-bij-een-volgende-piek-moet-aanpak-anders-wijs-corona-ziekenhuizen-aan.html

          • Maarten Binder says up

            Tino, was that you who started fencing Nazi Germany and Stalin Russia?
            Doesn't that seem a lot like politicizing, or worse, a completely misplaced ad hominem?
            If you close entire departments because of Covid, in Spain there was even a ban on admission for patients other than Covid, then you shouldn't be surprised if regular care decreases.
            So mismanagement from the start and people were warned.

            • Johnny B.G says up

              How could one have done better with the lack of today's knowledge?
              I find it even crazier what is happening now. The Netherlands is trapped in a one and a half meter society and in Thailand normal life is getting back on track with face masks
              Is the Netherlands panicking like a blind man or is Thailand letting it happen to make the weakest lose weight? In my circle, this cannot be deduced from which the question can also be asked whether Dutch politics is using or abusing this crisis.

              • Rob V says up

                In Thailand, the measures are stricter than in the Netherlands: a state of emergency is officially in force there, social distancing measures (keeping a distance of 2 meters, masks on the bus and train are mandatory and some provinces, but also mandatory for customers by many companies). Shopping centers where you are only allowed to enter if you leave digital traces (log in with app/QR code). Thailand is now in phase 2 of phasing out, high-risk places such as clubs and zoos are not allowed to open yet. And so forth.

                If keeping one and a half meters away in the Netherlands is a prison, what does that make Thailand? A penal camp? Or if the Thai phase is 'back to normal', while it is still a bit more relaxed in the Netherlands, then more than normal in the Netherlands?

                Or are both Thailand and the Netherlands after strict (sometimes ad-hoc, sometimes perhaps too long or with consultation from too few specialists from various sectors) measures, both are simply phasing out step by step towards returning to normal. Maybe too slow, maybe too fast, we can talk about that. I think so. But to portray Thailand and the Netherlands as a kind of opposite? No, I don't think that's right.

                https://www.khaosodenglish.com/news/crimecourtscalamity/2020/05/23/govt-3rd-phase-of-lockdown-relaxation-takes-effect-on-june-1/

                https://www.khaosodenglish.com/politics/2020/05/22/emergency-decree-extended-no-new-virus-case-reported/

                https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/1891290/70-thais-stick-to-social-distancing

                • Johnny B.G says up

                  It is nicely told but it is not what it is as often. Responding from the polder does not mean that it is correct.

                • Rob V says up

                  Would you like a substantiation Johnny? Reacting like that from under the coconut tree doesn't mean it's correct. 😉 I have given some substantiated with sources. I would like to hear from which either the Netherlands is stricter or more panicked than appears from the various media or from which it appears that Khaosod, Bangkok Post, etc. (can also look for such pieces from Thai PBS, Prachatai, etc. if you want) paint an incorrect or incomplete picture.

                • Ger Korat says up

                  An important point that the Netherlands is stricter than Thailand . I have never read anywhere that the elderly in Thailand are locked up, isolated and deprived of contact with relatives and relatives. In the Netherlands, decisions are made about the elderly and sick on the back of this group, without the consent or consent of the elderly and/or family. As said by Dr. Erwin Kompanje: worse than a prison.
                  And a second point is the 2 meter society. The Dutch government wants to be the best boy and, for example, fines people who live together in a house but are not related, for example in a student house, if they walk outside together. Or you take your friend with you in the car: wrong thing because no 1,5 meters away. And so you can expect some more nonsense in the Netherlands, while the Thais are a bit more flexible with it.

                  What I think of the 1,5 meter rule: gave a story in de Volkskrant a day or 2 in this blog that said that every outdoor contact has an almost completely negligible risk of infection (only 1 infection on more than 7324 infected persons in the city of Wuhan which were investigated originated in the open air). The whole 1,5 meter thing comes from China, which once said that the virus was contagious in the air up to a small distance. And now the Chinese researchers are coming up with a study that is completely negligible and that the entire 1,5 meter society is therefore not based on facts. And you can count on the fact that the Chinese are now careful with publishing because of the many embarrassments about the corona, and yet they come up with this research and result. If I had the say: immediately the whole 1,5 meter rule in the open air, on the street, in the parks, beaches. outdoor terraces and more lift.
                  see the link: https://www.volkskrant.nl/wetenschap/onderzoek-nauwelijks-kans-op-besmetting-in-buitenlucht~b28c006b/

                • Johnny B.G says up

                  I wish I was under a coconut tree to express my opinion hhh
                  As I see the situation with my own eyes and that is quite a reliable source, it is quite humane in Bangkok despite the state of emergency.
                  No one approaching me in the public domain with personal questions about whether or not we are related.
                  Not necessarily traveling in public transport in NL is prohibited.. who really lives in an oppressed society?

            • Tino Kuis says up

              Yes that was me. I think that society should not decide who we should or should not be looked after 'to the end'. That is between doctor and patient. This applies to every concern.

              I have not read anywhere that there was a ban in Spain for non-covid-19 patients. Do you have a source for that?

              As far as I know, in the Netherlands you could simply refer any acute patient.

              It is very annoying that regular care has decreased. That should not have been and should not have been necessary on that scale. The doctors should have protested a little louder.
              . . '

              • I had the impression that you were rather condescending about protesting doctors?

                Tino: 'In recent weeks, when their work has decreased by more than 50 percent, the doctors have studied the whole thing in depth.' These two doctors have lost 50% of their income in the last two months! Of course they want to go back to normal times! (Corona joke)

              • chris says up

                dear tina,
                I think that society should be fully allowed to get involved in healthcare. What's more, it has been happening for decades now. The government and the insurance companies are important players and even decision-makers. The doctor and the patient can want as much as they want, but if the insurance doesn't pay, it won't happen.
                My mother no longer receives certain medicines that worked well because they are 'too expensive', according to the GP. NOW she gets a generic. Who decided that?
                Ethical issues also arise. Should society continue to pay for very expensive IVF treatments? Are people who can't have children really sick? And are there no 'cheaper' alternatives such as adoption. The same goes for plastic surgery.

                • Tino Kuis says up

                  ๋You're absolutely right, Chris. Society also determines the limits of care, who pays what and how much. What is allowed and what is not. I was too strict. There will always be discussions about this, for example about the reimbursement of the contraceptive pill.
                  But within those limits, doctors and patients must decide together how to act.

              • Maarten Binder says up

                Tino, you are forgiven. Many doctors are very angry because of the fumbling and shoddy work of the so-called experts. In addition, doctors are simply threatened if they have a different opinion, for example by not renewing contracts with the detested healthcare providers.
                Fortunately, more and more doctors are starting to protest. Not before, because most of them believed in the WHO and its servile followers, such as the RIVM and many incompetent pocket-filling virologists.

                My source from Spain is a hospital in Benidorm where I was on the ethics committee for cancer research. I give them advice every now and then.

        • Rob V says up

          Aren't they also crazy in The Hague? In many media we read about the consequences of delayed treatments, doctors who are worried. Newspapers and TV have been highlighting this many times since the end of March. The media also reported how ICUs were filling up with threats, how they were going to increase capacities, transfer IC patients to other hospitals (even as far as Germany). The acute threat of too few beds in the ICU was obvious, wasn't it? Then you take ad hoc measures. Many Thailand blog readers praised ad hoc action as decisive action (of Thai or Dutch measures).

          The problem, of course, is how to scale back to normal. Too fast then you commit political suicide (Rutte who underestimates the virus), too slowly (Rutte who lets the non-corona patient drown to death).
          I think Rutte is not crazy, he knows just as well that if you act too slowly (killing due to care avoidance), newspapers and media images will appear of people who died unnecessarily with a lot of suffering and drama. Those cameras were there in the past where access to care fell short, but the cameras are coming again.

          I'm glad I'm not at the helm because no matter how you do it, an army of captains say you're not doing it right or even have bad secondary motives. I'm still not sure how well the Netherlands or Thailand presented. I would like to hear all the information calmly, but that is a luxury that the captain of the ship cannot afford.

          - https://www.trouw.nl/zorg/patienten-mijden-zorg-ook-bij-ernstige-klachten~bfc7852d/
          - https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/afgezegde-zorg-dreigt-meer-levens-te-kosten-dan-corona~b64d16ef/

      • Tino Kuis says up

        I have read the relevant research (gupta-strategists). I do not think that the partial suspension of regular care has cost 100.000 to 400.000 healthy life years. Too many assumptions. They call it an estimate. Nevertheless, it is of course sad.

        This suspension has two causes. Patients postpone their check-ups and/or treatment themselves or doctors do so. I can somewhat imagine that patients do this, but I do not understand why doctors have done so to such an extent. I blame them.

        • Come on Tino you know what was going on. They were not allowed to treat patients. There was no ICU capacity, not for planned care. Was reserved for covid-19 patients. Doctors complained stone and bone that only attention was paid to Corona. My own GP also complained that she was not allowed to refer anyone for a while (unless life-threatening).

          • willem says up

            This is not entirely true. Heart specialists only saw 1/3 of the normal number of patients on cardiac monitoring. Not because they weren't welcome, but because they simply don't report to the hospital. The story has multiple clients.

          • Tino Kuis says up

            All patients who needed to be treated were treated, dear Peter. All acute cases were helped, including those that needed further treatment in the ICU. The ICU was not reserved for covid alone, that's not true..

            And yes, planned care was postponed where possible. That, too, is likely to have negative consequences. Again, the choices that had to be made are really, really hard. Each choice had its advantages and disadvantages. Just weigh that up.

            • The definition of acute can of course be stretched quite a bit. Surgeries in cancer patients have been postponed, whereby the patient was told that his life expectancy decreased somewhat. No, not acutely. You might just die a little sooner. You will be that patient….

    • ruud says up

      Compare the Corona with other diseases.
      In the Netherlands, 2018 million life years were lost to premature death in 1,8.

      https://www.volksgezondheidenzorg.info/ranglijst/ranglijst-aandoeningen-op-basis-van-verloren-levensjaren

      Compared to this, the number of Corona deaths is nothing.

      Purely numerical, of course.
      For the next of kin, of course, it is different.

      If something were to be tested for lung cancer better, it would save many more years of life than all the money spent on the Corona.

    • Lilian says up

      In the Netherlands, people over the age of 80 hardly ever end up in the ICU.
      Most die in the nursing home.
      This in contrast to the surrounding and southern countries.

      It's amazing how many 'doctors' there are suddenly who do everything
      knowing about diseases, viruses, etc. Know-it-alls, isn't that called?

  3. Rob says up

    I completely agree with this doctor.

  4. Christian says up

    I also agree with Dr. Kompanje, Rob.
    We need to change our mindset. That takes quite a bit. Sometimes medical care in the Netherlands is also inhumane in cases other than corona.

  5. Renee Martin says up

    Corona is a new disease and no one knew what the best treatment was and how it would spread. It seems that there simply was not and is not enough capacity to treat people with a serious illness, so choices have to be made. Hopefully we can learn lessons from the past months and it looks like we just have to spend more money if we want to help everyone.

  6. John says up

    Great interview. I think this man describes well and substantiated what many of us often think and feel. Let's hope we don't get a higher number of casualties due to economic and psychological aftermath.

  7. chris says up

    My mother (93) lives in a nursing home in Eindhoven. THE social moment of the day is dinner with all the other residents. That has been stopped for weeks now due to Covid-19. She can now come pick up and eat the food in her apartment. On the way to et restauarnat and back, she sees some fellow residents, but she has to keep her distance and everyone is frightened. Visits by children and grandchildren are also prohibited.
    My sister has a key to the side door where there is no 'security'. She visits my mother for coffee and a few groceries (mainly for breakfast and fruit) a few times a week. My mom is just happy.
    I am sure that if you ask my mother if she wants to live another 5 years under the covid regime or 2 or 3 years with all the freedoms before the crisis, she will not have to think twice: back to normal, not the 'new' normal. Dr. Erwin is absolutely right.

    • Rob V says up

      Dr. Erwin's story is too simplistic, does not mention the various figures (for and against). But what many probably agree with, at least I do, is that I don't believe in a 'new normal' where we have to maintain some form of social distancing for years to come. Step by step back to normal. At what pace? That is a complex consideration, but if that were to take years, you would drive people crazy and, in my opinion, cause damage that does not outweigh Corona victims.

      • Ger Korat says up

        Yes, if you want to see various figures so much, you can also get this above water yourself, right?
        For example, where have all the flu deaths gone this year? And why did we have a week last week with more than 200 fewer deaths than there should normally be.
        see the link:
        https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/nieuws/2020/21/sterfte-in-week-20-lager-dan-normaal

        And why was the entire society not shut down in the past if there were thousands of extra deaths in a few weeks or months due to the flu, which could also have been prevented with the current measures?

        The virus never goes away and a cure for a mutating virus (I understood from Dr. Erwin) is an illusion. Social distancing is a disaster for many and for the economy, culture, tourism and more. And it is also disastrous for health because thanks to contact with each other, half of the population is already immune / has antibodies due to 4 different cold viruses that we constantly pass on to each other. So as a layman I say: quickly back to normal before more people get the corona virus.

        • Rob V says up

          Maybe a strange idea, but in my opinion someone who makes an argument should also substantiate this and substantiate claims. So if sir says that the dead are almost all old people who didn't have long to live anyway, then I want to hear figures and stuff. I'm tired of shouting without substantiation (regardless of whether the person is in favor of very strict Corona measures or wants to let go of everything). I like to listen to various insights, but I want to see substantiation. I am therefore a source fetishist who does not just believe in someone's beautiful blue eyes, no matter how (un)charismatic the speaker is.

          • Then those numbers must be there. This gentleman talks about what he saw in his own hospital, I don't suppose he has any reason to lie about that? In Thailand you get an inspection to see how old a corona death is and what his / her medical past was and the profession of the person is also mentioned. We also read how many people in Thailand have been cured of Corona. In England, the professions of the corona deaths are also kept up to date (this is therefore interesting information). In the Netherlands, on the other hand, we only hear very little about who died. Ages are omitted. Conscious? Do they have something to hide?

          • HarryN says up

            I'll help you! Dr Erwin does not need me to prove that with figures in Germany Hamburg, Prof. dr. Dr Klaus Puschel heads autopsy from a hospital there. Has investigated 140 “corona” deaths and concluded that all had died of serious underlying diseases and even said that corona is a relatively harmless disease. There are several websites that indicate this. You say you are a source fetishist, but I only see AD/Trouw/Volkskrant and yes also the Bangkok post, of which a reader also wondered whether that newspaper is also on the government's side. Unfortunately, the MSM is not the best source, they just want to spread fear. Check out more on YouTube: Dr Ioannidis/Londonreal/DR. Rashid Buttar/Dr Shiva Ayyaduras/DR.Anrew Kaufman/Dr Judy Mikovits or DR Campbell /commonsens tv or yes EJBron and even Jensen.nl and note that he does not invent anything himself but also looks in the world and there are many many websites more about the biggest scam that happens to us.

        • ruud says up

          The deceased flu patients are often registered with where the patient eventually died.
          For example, pneumonia (if you can get it from the flu).

          I had already come across this on the Internet during my search for the missing flu deaths of Statistics Netherlands, but I can no longer remember which site.

          Apparently this works differently with Corona and the deaths are booked under Corona.

      • chris says up

        I think the government's story is too simplistic from the start. And we will reap the bitter fruits of that for a very long time to come.
        We may have saved a number of elderly people from certain death by more or less locking them up, without asking them if it was okay. And what will happen in 2021? No, not a discount on the state pension; no government dares to do that, but it does on pensions. Who gets less money? Right, the elderly we spared. And who will soon wash his hands in innocence? Right, the Rutte government because the pension funds do not belong to the government.

  8. Eric Kuypers says up

    Many other countries have also taken measures like the Dutch government did. Up to curfew and prohibition of regional traffic, closure of schools and borders, control of mouth flaps and temperature. China completely closed off a city of millions.

    Dr. Erwin Kompanje is a well-known expert. But do I understand correctly that only the Netherlands has such a great expert? Or is the truth, as so often the case here, in the middle?

  9. janbeute says up

    A wonderful interview that I completely agree with.
    Because when the man comes with the scythe it's time to leave, anyway.

    Jan Beute.

    • Tarud says up

      Because more and more people live and work on this globe and because more and more contagious viruses are emerging, we will have to take into account that we will have to take measures more and more often. I think it's good to look at the HIV virus and AIDS. Everyone knows by now that if you want to prevent an infection you should either use a safe condom or stay with a safe partner. Other viruses spread through the mouth, nose and eyes. The best protection is a combination of a face shield and a nose/mouth mask. They are also used by health care providers. With this double protection, no lock down is necessary, no 1.5 meter distance.
      Many activities can be carried out with this double protection. So if we get a new outbreak of Covid19, 20, 21, 22 during the new normal, everyone must immediately deploy that double protection. That would be a simple, cheap solution, where normal life can continue. No lock down, but a face shield and a mouth / nose cap. The new condom, 1 meter higher.

  10. Jacques says up

    Life is finite for everyone and that will never change, although there are people who apparently want to stretch this as long as possible. I can imagine something with this, but under livable conditions and those are often lacking in old age. Many of us have aged and become ill without being held responsible. There are also many of us who only do something in life and are often very unhealthy. You probably know them in your friends and family circle or maybe this refers to you. I understand from studies that the healthy elderly have little or nothing to fear from this virus. It is the unhealthy old people who usually die from this and if not from this virus then from something else, because there are so many diseases from which people die. Professor Scherder recently talked about it on TV and partly due to the irresponsible eating and drinking behavior and insufficient exercise of many, we are now faced with a government that has to make decisions that, in retrospect, do not turn out too well. Closing one hole with another and eventually sinking so far that many people die again. Decisions about health and healthy living and everything that has to do with it, such as dying from this virus, is something in which people themselves have a great responsibility. I know many who cannot do without alcohol and talk about it lightly and even boast that they are heavy users. If they die then this is sad but this should be on the plate of others. I do not think so. Weighing one against the other is something we all have to do and the consequences are there for everyone, so be a good man or woman in that and don't let society be the victim of this.

  11. chris says up

    Should the approach have been different? From the start I seriously wondered whether all the stringent measures in the case of Covid-19 were really necessary. In addition to following the news and reading articles, every day until the end of March, I hit the streets, took public transport to work in Bangkok and the number of infections was virtually zero until the Thai foreign workers returned from Seoul. But I was a voice crying in the wilderness. Now I find myself in the undesirable company of the PVV and FvD, who first agreed with the measures (for the closure of schools, for example) but have suddenly changed their opinion now that there are more protests against government policy. They are not against because the policy needs to be changed, but for reasons of freedom and the absence of a legal basis for the stringent measures.
    Could the approach have been different? Certainly. The fact that the corona virus was new and that politicians did not know what to do is a gross misrepresentation of what politicians are supposed to do, which is to lead solutions to the problems facing the country. If they're just looking after the store, my cousin might as well run the country. And - curiously enough - there have been enough unexpected crises in the Netherlands that politicians could handle: bomb attacks, murders of acquaintances, train and plane hijackings, shooting down of a plane with Dutch people on board, etc. the biggest mistakes of the corona policy is (still) that everything is subordinated to the opinions and advice of the medical sector, and then a limited part of that sector (virologists). it has become a kind of belief on which no criticism is possible and not accepted, until recently. A video with an interview with 2 critical American doctors has now been removed from Youtube for the second time. (because of the fake news qualifier)
    If one would have studied chaos theory a bit, one would know that nothing new in this world is completely new, but largely follows patterns that were already there. “Initially, chaos theory is a scientific principle that describes the unpredictability of systems, such as weather patterns, ecosystems and water flows. While such systems exhibit random chaotic behavior, they can be defined by mathematical formulas and are not nearly as chaotic as one might think.” This works with algorithms that are also used by FB, for example. Based on search behavior and giving comments and likes before noon, an algorithm can determine how stressed you are that day. The corona virus follows certain patterns that are revealed by researcher de Hond in various interviews. Nothing is done at all with this progressive knowledge, based on research. Still not.

  12. Tino Kuis says up

    Recent data from Brazil and Mexico show that there is much higher mortality among young people than in Europe.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/coronavirus-brazil-killing-young-developing-world/2020/05/22/f76d83e8-99e9-11ea-ad79-eef7cd734641_story.html

    Quote:
    In Brazil, 15 percent of deaths have been people under 50 — a rate more than 10 times greater than in Italy or Spain. In Mexico, the trend is even more stark: Nearly one-fourth of the dead have been between 25 and 49. In India, officials reported this month that nearly half of the dead were younger than 60. In Rio de Janeiro state, more than two-thirds of hospitalizations are for people younger than 49.

    • That doesn't say much. It is important to know whether they had underlying diseases: obesity, high blood pressure, asthma, cardiovascular disease, diabetes, etc.? It is known that many of the victims in New York were already sick before they died of Covid-19. There also appear to be different variants of Covid-19, one more serious than the other.

    • Eric van Dusseldorp says up

      Tino, when you talk about India, you must of course add that only three out of a million (!) people have died from Covid-19 there.

    • Maarten Binder says up

      Yes, thank you the cuckoo, although it can't help it either
      In Brazil there is a lot of HIV, but even more G6PD deficiency, which is also a risk factor without HCQ, but the WAPO does not report this, because the panic-mongering must continue.

  13. Lia Kerkhoff says up

    Beautiful interview that beautifully expresses the gut feeling and unplaceable questions about the "corona" with humor and necessary question marks towards this confinement in our cute 'free' Netherlands.

  14. Kevin Oil says up

    Excellent interview, totally agree.
    My 85-year-old father went into the elderly home just before the corona measures, we were able to visit him for another week until everything was 'locked'.
    This afternoon I can come by again for a 20 minute 'window call', it's better than nothing, but the best man craves old-fashioned contact...
    Despite the excellent care (nothing but praise for the staff) he seems to be wasting away bit by bit.
    The 'enlightened' measures after May 25, where 1 person (cannot change!) is now allowed to visit him (remotely!) 1x a week in a room, do not actually make things any better…


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