Thailand Visa question No. 052/22: To emigrate to Thailand or not?
Questioner: Josh
Question about what to do when immigrating to Thailand? The thing is, I sold everything in the Netherlands and left it behind. Only have a mailing address with an acquaintance. Neatly registered with the municipality and with the SVB. So in 7 months I will have to report myself again in the Netherlands to the municipality where I am still registered. So now I don't want to go back to the Netherlands because I am now married in Thailand at the Amphur and I am registered as married according to the law.
Soon also get my Non O visa based on marriage. Did research and no problems. Built my own house together with my wife, which is fully paid for, so no bank etc.
The question is what is the best thing to do now? Just apply for an extension every year on the basis of marriage, or emigrate to Thailand completely? Have no idea which is better for me? If I don't go to the Netherlands, I will be deregistered there and my state pension will be paid into my account, at least if I report to SVB. So don't know what I have to do to emigrate completely? So I don't want to go back to the Netherlands anymore. Need 1 more time to scatter the urn and that's it.
Is there any advice for this?
Reaction RonnyLatYa
I limit myself to advice about your residence status in Thailand. Whether you will return to the Netherlands periodically or never again, does not matter at all for obtaining your annual extension. Obtaining a year extension is not dependent on permanent or permanent emigration to Thailand.
As long as you meet and continue to meet the requirements of, in this case, a Thai Marriage extension, it is good.
Being deregistered in the Netherlands is not a requirement and therefore does not matter.
Whether you should emigrate permanently to Thailand or not, I will not say. These are personal considerations that you have to make yourself.
I also know too little about the consequences of deregistering and emigrating from the Netherlands.
I leave that to your compatriots and readers who want to advise you can always do so in a comment.
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Hello namesake, I don't know your age but take into account the health insurance.
You can usually deregister from the municipality online.
Do ask your municipality whether they register with the RNI.
If your income pension + state pension is not more than 1200 euros, you can just get by here.
I took the step 2 years ago and I'm still happy.
You cannot deregister online from Thailand, you have to do that by post, at least in Amsterdam, but I assume that it is the same for every municipality.
Are you abroad? You can only use the online form from Belgium, Germany, France, the United Kingdom or Ireland. Do you want to report the emigration from another country? Then you can only do this by post. (Source website municipality of Amsterdam)
Rudolf
Rudolf, I lived in Dordrecht and did the deregistration at the municipality online on 1-1-2020 and then registered at the RNI.
RNI was in The Hague or Rotterdam, I'm not sure anymore.
When choosing to immigrate to Thailand with a relatively small income (eg only a limited state pension), it is sometimes forgotten that the financial requirements of the visa are set in Thai Baht and the exchange rate changes unpredictably. When deciding whether the disposable income is sufficient to live on in Thailand, people forget that there is also inflation in Thailand. Everything is getting more expensive here too.
There are harrowing examples of Dutch people who met immigration requirements with a minimal income when the Thai Baht was 50 to the euro, and later had to accept an illegal residence status in order to stay with their Thai spouse and children, or worse: only to the Netherlands had to return.
Choose with a wide margin for possible setbacks.
it is also almost always assumed that the thai woman has no income at all or only a small amount.
But a growing group of expats are married to middle-class Thai women: teachers, military, civil servants, nurses, etc. They are really able to pay part of the money that has to be on the bill. The Thai government doesn't care who pays/advances/borrows that 400.000 Baht.
Indeed. As long as it is in your name 2 or 3 months before the application, it is fine.
You don't have to prove the origin of the money for an annual extension.
Best to keep it until after the “Under consideration” and do what you want with it for the rest of the year.
That is very well known to me. Nevertheless, quite a few problems have arisen for foreigners (including Dutch) with a very low income who have chosen a life in Thailand with a Thai wife in the time when the Thai Baht was very cheap and who now (and before) ) do not meet the financial Visa requirements (300.000 bht, or a demonstrable monthly income of one twelfth thereof, both in case of a so-called Thai wife Visa) Of course, especially in recent years, there has been a large group of foreigners who are married with well-educated Thai women and from that group one can rightly assume that the immigration step has been well thought through.
My comment is general and certainly not an answer to the specific question of someone I don't know.
Not 300 000 Bht or a 12th thereof. Where do you get those numbers from?
400 000 Baht or a minimum income of 40 000 Baht per month.
Whatever you do, make sure you are properly deregistered in NL.
Especially with the tax!
If you ever go back to NL, and the deregistration was not complete, you will be completely undressed by the NL tax!!!
I know from experience!!!!
Jos, emigrate or not? So you have already answered that question: you emigrate. Then you must be unsubscribed and for that I recommend this link:
https://www.nederlandwereldwijd.nl/wonen-werken/basisregistratie-personen/uitschrijven-uit-de-brp/wanneer-moet-ik-me-uitschrijven-uit-de-basisregistratie-van-mijn-gemeente#:~:text=Uitschrijven%20bij%20de%20gemeente,persoon%2C%20afhankelijk%20van%20uw%20situatie.
Contact your municipality and ask if they allow deregistration other than in person. It is important that you deregister, if only for the tax liability and for the national insurance and healthcare insurance premiums that you continue to pay today. The municipality will report this to the competent bodies after you have deregistered.
Jos, there is a lot to think about. The link Erik gives above also leads you to the topic:
Also arrange if you are going to move abroad.
Go through it and you will come across a lot of things that are important and you should know if you move to Thailand!
If you remain registered in NL, you must stay in NL for 4-6 months per year, otherwise you will have a problem with your AOW. An acquaintance of mine here was informed by another Dutchman that he had been in Thailand for 7 months, and had to move heaven and earth to undo the recovery of AOW (including a fine for non-compliance with the law).
Also see here where it is explained in understandable language what to do if you are staying abroad for a longer period of time
https://www.aroundtheglobe.nl/reizen/voorbereidingen/gemeentezaken-reizen-si562.html
goort, you say that if you go to live in thailand, the state pension will no longer be paid. Is incorrect. Look up: svb.nl where you can enter a country under state pension to see if you will continue to receive your state pension there. You can see the answer below.
If you stay in the Netherlands for less than 4 months, a lot will change. You should then deregister from the Netherlands and register in the RNI register, the register of non-residents. You will also no longer be able to use Dutch health insurance and much more that will change.
First the text on the SVB website about leaving the Netherlands for Thailand.
Your state pension is paid out
If you live in this country, you can (continue to) receive your AOW and income support AOW, as long as you meet the conditions. You will continue to be entitled in this country, because a treaty has been concluded with agreements on monitoring entitlement to benefits.
There are other factors that can affect the amount of your AOW and income support AOW. We therefore recommend that you contact us if you plan to move to this country or another country.
When determining the territorial scope of treaties, we start from internationally recognized boundaries.
Hi Josh,
You write that you don't know what you have to do to "emigrate completely" (as if you could also emigrate halfway).
Your question indicates that you are not a loyal reader of Thailandblog and then problems like this arise. The topic of deregistering from your municipality and emigrating abroad has been discussed countless times in Thailandblog.
The fact that you do not know how to act when you intend/want to emigrate therefore indicates a very poor preparation for your emigration. Selling your home in the Netherlands, leaving a letter address here and getting married and building a house in Thailand is not enough. You simply have to deregister from your municipality in the Netherlands.
You probably do not have to return to the Netherlands for this. Most municipalities have the option of deregistering digitally. Check the website of your municipality for this.
Good luck,
Lammert de Haan.
Suppose your marital status in NL is single, you will receive AOW on the basis of single.
In Thailand you live together and you will therefore only receive 800 euros AOW. Are you aware of this?
Since you apparently can choose between regular flying back and forth with hotel costs in the Netherlands, and have already built a house in Thailand, I assume that you do not have to bite a stick.
If you are not a daily customer for the doctor, I would just move to Thailand permanently.
In Thailand you have a wife and a house, and in the Netherlands you have a postal address.
What else are you looking for there?
If there are still people you want to see occasionally, just get on a plane for two weeks or so.
But the longer you live in Thailand, those contacts wear out automatically.
Assuming you've already been given and found a lot of information, I'm not going to get involved.
I have been unregistered since 2009.
Name some examples.
1) If you remain registered, you must go to the Netherlands every year for the obligations.
Advantage one can stay in the ZKV, which is excellent.
2) When deregistering you do not have to go to the Netherlands, but you can go afterwards if you want.
Disadvantage one can no longer get a Dutch ZKV since 2018, even if it is expensive.
Thai ZKV I don't know anything about that, but one can get enough information.
So leave it entirely up to you what is best for you.
Hans van Mourik
Emigrate to Thailand or not? is the question.
I mainly read answers that answer another question: namely, what should I arrange for an emigration to Thailand
I also have the opportunity to emigrate to Thailand, but I do not intend to.
We have chosen to go to Thailand only a few months a year (3-5) during the winter period.
The reason for me is that Thailand is nice for a vacation, like many other destinations.
Apart from all the success stories on this forum, I often hear other stories during my stay in Thailand from people who have lived there for a long time.
Me and my Thai wife have been coming to many places in Thailand for over 40 years and have visited and met many people. We also have a new house and 6 rai land.
The future of the Farangs living in Thailand depends on arrangements that can be modified according to the government's needs. For a few years still the widely used border run rule, which is now limited to 2 times.
When it is decided to increase the financial requirement, many Farangs get into trouble.
The Dutch requirement that you must stay in the Netherlands for at least 4 months a year is not checked.
You also have few rights in Thailand.
I also think emigration is the wrong word. I prefer to talk about a long stay.
You don't get a Thai passport, you can't buy land, you can't vote, you don't have the right to stay without additional financial conditions. You are not insured.
Thai people in the Netherlands want to return to Thailand every year.
It would be strange that Dutch people in Thailand would not want to go back to the Netherlands every year.
In short: keep the assets in the Netherlands for at least a number of years and only decide what to do later.
Khun Moo, 'migrating to' is actually wrong in the headline of Jos' question. To emigrate is to move from your own country. Has your country been abandoned with residence. I would rather use the word 'move'.
But whether you take long vacations in another country or actually emigrate is a personal choice. That is different for everyone. Fortunately, we can discuss all the arguments for and against here.
Not agreed.
“Emigrating to” is not wrong
You emigrate from your country or to a country. Can you always.
You immigrate to a country, provided you meet the immigration requirements of that country.
Moving is too limited as a meaning because you can also move within the Netherlands.
Emigrating automatically also means moving, the other way around is not the case.
Ronnie,
Apart from the terms Immigration and Emigration, which you have described well, I think that the emphasis should be placed on the terms used as they are often confused.
One can emigrate from the Netherlands but not immigrate to Thailand.
I think it is about a more fundamental point.
For Thailand, no Dutch or Belgian meets the Thai immigration requirements in my opinion.
It is only a permission to stay for 1 year, if you continue to meet the conditions set at that time. can be extended by 1 year at a time.
I compare it in the Netherlands for Thai people with an MVV (Provisional Residence Permit).
Dutch people who immigrate to Canada, USA, Australia or New Zealand, for example, can acquire the nationality of the country in question after a few years, can vote, buy land and become residents of the country in question and receive the same rights and after a few years no Immigration concerns.
None of this in Thailand.
You can immigrate to Thailand.
That is not possible directly upon arrival from the Netherlands, of course.
You will, among other things, have to have obtained an extension for at least 3 consecutive years as a Non-immigrant.
You always assume that the highest achievable in Thailand is the visa and the annual extension. So the non-immigrant status.
For some it is (Retired for example), but not for everyone (Thai Marriage for example)
It is also a matter of wanting to do it of course and they will not come and offer it to you.
In Thailand you have four residence statuses
1. The tourist
2. The Nonimmigrant
3. The Permanent Resident (which is actually the immigrant)
4. Thai nationality.
You can actually go from 1 to 4, but most of them start at 2 and think it ends there, mostly because they don't know 3 and 4, so it doesn't exist.
There are possibilities to move on to 3 and 4, but of course that has its requirements, whereby 3 is not as unattainable as many think. 4 will probably be hard to get to, but there are.
It takes its time of course and is not something that you will get through a stamp at immigration when you land in Thailand.
Each year, 100 places are opened up per country to obtain permanent residency. So become an immigrant. Usually that is somewhere in September and you can submit the application until December.
I have no idea how many end up submitting that application. I don't know if there are any figures available to us on that.
By the way, there is at least 1 Permanent Resident here on TB.
I myself am thinking of maybe submitting the application next year, but it will depend on some private circumstances in Belgium.
Also, I need to dig into it a bit more.
But then you will not have the same rights as when a Thai immigrates to, say, the Netherlands, but those are the immigration laws of a country.
But that you cannot immigrate or even become Thai is actually incorrect.
Ronnie,
You know that 1 person on TB has a Permanent Resident Permit.
With 275.000 visitors on TB, it indicates exactly the point I am referring to.
In theory everything is possible, but in practice it is more difficult.
I also have an acquaintance with a permanent resident permit.
Then we already know 2 together.
The knowledge I know is wealthy
Has built more than a hundred condos in Thailand and has several restaurants.
Not your average retirement.
What do 275.000 visits per month to TB say about whether or not Permanent Residentship is then?
How many ordinary tourists are out there who go to Thailand on a Visa Exempt once a year, or even once in their lives, or who never go to Thailand again but keep following it, or consider it as a vacation and holiday at some point in the future? just looking for information…
In short, a pointless comparison…
And maybe there are more PR among those visitors, but they don't respond. But those are also TB visitors.
As I said before, a large part do not know what the PR is about and think it stops at their visa and renewal. They say that it can't be done. And there are those who are right because if you stay here as a Retired you can't become a PR. That category is not eligible or they should try under (5):
The eligible category is:
(1) Investment class
(2) Working/Business category
(3) Humanity Reasons category: he/she must have relationship with a Thai citizen or an alien who already possessed residence permit as the followings:
1) A legal husband or wife.
2) A legal father or mother.
3) A child who is under 20 years of age up to the application submission date and must be single.
(4) Expert category
(5) Additional circumstances on a case by case basis
But those who do know or qualify usually find an excuse not to apply for it. Too expensive, you have to know Thai, all is not necessary, for that money I can apply for many year extensions, if it is refused you have lost the money, etc…
And that's fine with me. No one needs to request that for me. It's none of my business why someone does or doesn't.
The fact here was that you said "one can emigrate from the Netherlands but not immigrate to Thailand" and that is not the case. Although it has a different name and you will not have the same rights as a Thai, which is quickly the case with immigration in the Netherlands / Belgium.
By the way, you don't have to be very wealthy for that or to have built more than 100 condos. Investment is only category that makes PR accessible.
But there is also for family reason. Then costs 95 700 Baht and 7600 for the application. Just say a bussines ticket that many like to show off with.
But by the way, I've met more PRs and they didn't build a hundred condos. Some not even 1, but are average people. Usually they have worked in Thailand in the past and have become PR from there, which costs 191,400 Baht. Not unlike a present from the company where she worked.
Some info about Permanent Resident
https://www.thaicitizenship.com/the-ultimate-guide-to-thai-permanent-residence/
But do some Googling and you will find more about it
Khum Moo, 'None of this in Thailand.'???
No, that's not correct. You can become a permanent resident and then Thai national. But it costs a lot of money, paperwork, for the last option you have to be able to speak Thai (and sing…), and study your national legislation because under certain circumstances you can lose your Dutch nationality. As for the latter: I don't know the rules for Belgians.
Permanent Resident also includes an interview in Thai. But not as extensive as for Thai national. And as far as singing is concerned, that is of course the National Anthem.
Costs and the paperwork you have to take into account and if you really want that, that's just part of it.
As for Thai nationality.
In Belgium, dual nationality exists and in the Netherlands, under certain conditions, as far as I know. If you can prove that you still have interests in that country, I thought
Thai law does not initially allow a second nationality, but leaves the option open if one can prove that he/she still has interests in Thailand.
But in this case it is now important what Thailand demands if a foreigner applies for Thai nationality.
And in that case I thought that you have to give up the other nationality. Whether you still have interests in your home country or not doesn't matter, I thought.
Has nothing to do with what the Netherlands / Belgium have in their legislation about this. Then goes what Thai law prescribes.
I've read it all once, but I don't remember the details and I'm not going to look it up again. I certainly don't want to go so far as to go for Thai national.
I will consider the Permanent Resident program in the future.
RonnyLatYa,
regarding dual nationality in Thailand:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_nationality_law
With regard to Dutch nationality, see article 15 paragraph 1-a and article 2. Incidentally, a politically sensitive item in our country!
https://wetten.overheid.nl/BWBR0003738/2020-04-01
So there are possibilities!
Excuse me, 15-1-a and 15-2.
As far as Thailand is concerned, I remember it differently if it was about a foreigner who wants to take Thai nationality, but apparently there are also adjustments there.
So much the better for the persons who would like to request it.
As for a Thai taking on another nationality, it is as I said. I was sure of that as my wife is both Thai and Belgian
As far as the Netherlands is concerned, I will continue on what I once read about it here because I do not know the Dutch laws, let alone the exceptions to them. But maybe that has changed in the meantime.
Erik,
let me phrase it more precisely.
For 99% of the Farangs in Thailand:
You cannot get Thai nationality.
You can't vote
You cannot buy land
You don't have the same rights as Thai people
And year after year you have to comply with the immigration rules.
And unlike Thai people, you can no longer insure yourself for illness above 75. I'm not sure about the latter, but it is a point of attention.
Erik,
I agree with you.
A long holiday or emigration is indeed a personal choice, which is different for everyone.
If you end up with a good family, the stay can be pleasant.
Unfortunately, the reverse also happens.
Everything sold in the Netherlands, no rights in Thailand and after a number of years the person in question returns to the Netherlands completely penniless and or disappointed.
I have seen the success stories of satisfied people and also seen the personal misery of others.
That is why I advise: do not sell your house in the Netherlands, keep the base in the Netherlands and see Thailand as a pleasant holiday country without too many financial obligations.
It is better to try to get the Thai woman to the Netherlands and from there to visit Thailand regularly in the winter.
To emigrate or not, much has already been written about it. I think Khun Moo, it's a different story for everyone.
I also have the opportunity and I will do it. With all the bells and whistles that come with it, including unsubscribing. I have also been coming to Thailand for a few months a year for about 30 years, with my Thai wife on holiday.
We do not own a house in the Netherlands and are already getting older, flying back and forth is going to be difficult in the long run, and your rent continues if you are in Thailand for 8 months, subletting is not an option because you will be denounced by your fellow man and is also not fair with so much housing shortage.
I agree with you that the future can turn out differently in Thailand due to the rules that can be adjusted, but that is no reason for me to stay in the Netherlands.
The Dutch requirement that you must stay in the Netherlands for at least 4 months a year is not checked, you say, you could, but your informant is not sleeping. So for my own peace of mind I'm going to do everything according to the rules, you won't get any bullshit afterwards.
As for your rights in Thailand, I agree with you. but I don't care about a Thai passport, buying land, or voting, as I said it's personal for everyone.
You can possibly arrange insurance until you are 75, or provide savings for the inconveniences that are affordable. If you get something really serious such as cancer or heart disease in old age, you can usually not be cured with expensive insurance, at most a postponement of..... Life is finite and I accept that.
The main reason I'm going to emigrate is that I wish my wife, who has been working hard in the Netherlands for 35 years, and is now ready for it.
The Netherlands is nice to live in, but not to grow old, when I cycle past the nursing homes and I only see those old people sitting at such a table, no, I don't have to.
Then I prefer to sit on a chair in front of the house in Thailand, watching the dogs and cats playing, the birds in the trees and the grandchildren and great-grandchildren playing in the yard.
And you can count on my Thai family taking good care of me, because that pension comes in every month anyway, 55555
In the Netherlands, your pension goes to the nursing home, so I prefer to give it to the Thai family that takes good care of you.
This is my opinion, there will be readers who disagree with me, and that is of course allowed.
Regards Rudolf
Rudolph,
I think we have a lot in common.
I too have been coming to Thailand for 40 years 1 to 2 times a year for 6 weeks.
The last years 3 months.
We have both passed the state pension age
Financially, I meet the requirements for long-term residence and my wife has 2 passports.
We have a house with a garden in Thailand.
We also have a terrace with a view of the rice fields.
As far as getting old is concerned, for me it is the question of where you are best off.
Especially if you do not have a good command of the Thai language and are dependent on the goodwill of the family.
There is sometimes no guarantee that family members will always live nearby and can take care of you.
I wonder how you will explain to a hospital or doctor what your problems are.
They often speak poor English and certainly no Dutch.
You depend on your Thai family for just about everything when something needs to be arranged.
As for the lonely people in the Dutch nursing home:
Nowadays in the Netherlands it is the idea that people stay at home as long as possible and are cared for at home.
I think that as an older Farang you can be much more lonely in a Thai environment than between language fellows in the Netherlands.
Many farangs have been drinking alcohol well before their state pension age and not without reason.
The playing dogs, cats and birds is indeed beautiful.
Unfortunately I have had bad experiences with all 3.
The dog was given to a Vietnamese meat buyer and our young cats ran onto the road through an open gate, with fatal consequences.
The local youth shoots birds with a slingshot.
As far as the grandchildren are concerned, it can be wonderful or a downright disaster.
Nothing has come of our 3 grandchildren. Drug addiction, prison and too lazy to work. This despite the fact that we once sent them to a nice private school, complete with swimming pool and English lessons by both Thai and Farang teachers.
My general conclusion is that spending old age in Thailand can be both good and bad and I don't want to take this risk.
No immigration to Thailand for me and neither for my Thai / Dutch woman.
But deregistration is legally required at eight months. Failure to do so has consequences: if your data in the BRP is (intentionally) incorrectly passed on, you risk a fine of 325 euros.
A letter address is issued for a maximum period of one year. 2. On motivated written request, submitted before the expiry of a term, the term of one year can be extended twice by a period of six months.
As said, you are married, your AOW is affected by it.
You burned your ships, so now you either have to emigrate completely or come back, find a house to live in and register within 8 months.
I find it strange, let's say, that you managed to arrange things like transferring money, having a Thai account, marriage, a nun O mariage, postal address and not the rest.
So there is still something left to rectify