In my opinion it is a misconception that Thais only live by the day and don't look ahead. Most Thai women are indeed concerned with securing their future and sometimes also the family, in short: building up a pension.
We do this mainly by saving, but many Thais choose to build a house, buy a piece of land or invest in gold, for example. In the pursuit of possession, the help of the farang partner is usually sought. And that's where the shoe starts to wring.
Touch a Dutchman's wallet and you'll have the dolls dancing right away. Differences of opinion about money are therefore often a bomb among many relationships. In addition, it is also a recurring subject (and lamentation) at the regular table of expats and Dutch people with a Thai partner.
But look at the relationship from her point of view. How often does it happen that a Thai woman is put aside for old garbage or exchanged for a younger one. We also know the stories of farang who die; then it turns out that he has not arranged anything for his Thai partner. She is left penniless, sometimes even with young children.
The oppressive dependence on the sponsor contribution or goodness of the hubby is of course no basis for a healthy and equal relationship.
I don't understand the much-made comment that Thais live by the day and don't plan. When I look around me, I only see Thai women who are busy with their future from day one: work, marriage, children, house, purchase land, etc. A healthy way of thinking. By reducing the dependence, the relationship becomes more and more in a normal balance.
The fact that some farang don't like this because it gives them control says more about them than about the Thai woman in question. If you want a dog that obediently and faithfully hops after you, then there is something wrong with your thinking rather than that of your Thai partner.
The benefits but not the burdens? A normal thinking woman doesn't fall for that. And rightly so of course! Hence the statement of the week: "It is completely normal that Thai ladies want to secure their future"
Do you disagree with this statement? Then rule and tell why not.
About this blogger
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Known as Khun Peter (62), lives alternately in Apeldoorn and Pattaya. In a relationship with Kanchana for 14 years. Not yet retired, have my own company, something with insurance. Crazy about animals, especially dogs and a lover of good music.
Enough hobbies, but unfortunately little time: writing for Thailandblog, fitness, health and nutrition, shooting sports, chatting with friends and some other oddities.
My motto: "Don't worry too much, others will do that for you."
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I really don't have much more to add to this. In my eyes it is also completely normal and nothing different than in the west. I think the problem is more in the man than in the woman.
I can't agree with the idea of living by the day, especially when I look at my own environment.
My wife has quite a lot of Thai friends here in Alkmaar and not one of them is out of work.
The reason(s) they work is actually very simple to explain
1( they want to earn their own money (pride and they don't want to depend)
2 (save for later so indeed for the house in Thailand or in NL
3( send a (small or large) portion home to support the family.
4( to be among men
5 (extra things such as holidays or days away etc.
These seem perfectly normal reasons, don't they?
And now let the examples of all those "bad" women burst loose, because that is a lot easier than having to think whether the man in question is really that ok, right?
Totally agree. It's all about equality
That is why I chose to bring my wife to the Netherlands first.
Together we worked hard for 5 years and then we left for Thailand.
Bought a piece of land and built a house with the money we had saved together.
This way you build a healthy and solid relationship.
We have been living happily in our house between the rice fields for 10 years now.
From A to Z. totally agree
Pon my wife was actually already busy with her future as a child. I've always admired that in her and the Thai woman in general.
A good and positive piece.
Kees
I completely agree with the statement and I fully support the accompanying story. I can confirm the future orientation of Thais. This is also evident from the fact that Thais do save a lot, although you sometimes hear other stories: on average, between 10 and 12 percent of their income goes into the piggy bank, the piggy bank is an average of 200.000 baht per household. See the link below, also for debts.
http://asiancorrespondent.com/81931/household-debt-in-thailand-is-it-unsustainable-part-2/
Dear Tino
You don't want to tell me that the average Thai family has 200.000 baht in the bank, do you?
It seems to me rather that perhaps the 10% top layer has so much money in the bank that they manage to generate such an amount as an average for every Thai family.
What I did encounter in the Thai circle of acquaintances is large debts.
Despite having an “average” income of 100.000 baht per month.
If you mean an asset, then it could be that the house is counted, whether or not with the settlement of the outstanding debt.
That's fine, but most women I know often own either a house or a few rai of land.
If you calculate that back to capacity, it could well be close to that 200.000 baht.
Yes, Hans, Thai households have an average of 200.000 baht in savings. In fact, the link below says that Thais put aside an average of 17 percent of their income. But of course that savings will mainly be among the middle and higher incomes. This link also says that 27 percent of lower incomes (under 15.000 baht per month) do not or hardly save. I don't mean desire, that would be much higher.
http://www.aimc.or.th/en/42aimc_knowledge_detail.php?nid=32
Tino
I've been busy for a while.
Called some people together with daughters and counterpart, a good 20.
The average is therefore quite correct, but also underlines my comments.
I know, a number of 20 respondents is a bit low, but it does give an indication.
I also think that Ferdinand brings up a better story than the, in my opinion, politically correct story that Kuhn Peter introduces as a debate piece.
Anyone who has experienced a divorce in the Netherlands and has been kicked into the corner by legal inequality, becomes very careful.
And then you are for or against, of course, the second partner, Thai or not, not so generous anymore.
Can I hang a personal story?
I was married in the Netherlands, two children.
After 14 years of end of message, children assigned to me.
Having to share everything, and also have to pay alimony, I just stopped after 10 years.
And that doesn't happen to me anymore.
I'm not rich, but I'm not poor either.
When I enter the eternal hunting grounds, my pension will end.
So, everything I own then is for the equal.
Arranged by will and all in a trust, safe for children with partners, and further family…………..
Oh yes, my children in the Netherlands have already received a significant share as a future inheritance.
I fully agree with that statement.
You may also have Thai women who find the financial aspect very important, and who have a special vision about the farang.
You may also have farang who rather see a docile submissive wife in the Thai ladies… who allow a sidestep of the master of the house, or even simply exchange for a more recent “version”.
Not really a healthy basis for a relationship…..
Fortunately, I have already met many farang with Thai wives who do succeed in building a “balanced” relationship.
Of course you have to leave out a lot of cliché images…
And …. a good relationship has to be worked on every day, regardless of the origin of the partners.
….and rarely do I meet a Thai lady who is not responsible for her own income.
Moderator: You generalize. If you describe one experience concretely, we are happy to post it, but vague generalities go into the trash.
Totally agree.
Think of it as a kind of prepaid alimony or inheritance, so rightly so!
That way, the relationship is definitely equal and the woman, who for some reason is unable to work or has a low-paid job, for example because of children, does not have to fear being abandoned, especially if there are children .
Totally agree . I have arranged everything as best as possible. Divorce, death and daily affairs such as an income for her that she can spend herself. We therefore do not have difficult discussions about money, and we have a great time together. I am sure that it should be like this, otherwise you are not an equal partner. I think your position and vision are very good
Thai women do think about their future. I know some who, without the help of a farang, try to build themselves a financially carefree future through hard work.
Women are more active in this than most men.
My wife has always worked hard and earned very well selling meals at a university. When I got to know her and she came with me to the Netherlands, she immediately started working after the integration course and did not shy away from the well-paid nightly work. Her daughter was still studying in Thailand and for that she wanted to work and not depend solely on me.
Now that we live in Thailand, she knows that her future is assured even if I die before her. Money is available and she is entitled to a good survivor's pension. And now at the age of 60 she has stopped earning extra money, because she needs attention and time for 2 grandchildren.
Then go at it again. The catch is indeed that the Thai (but not only the Thai) woman tries to secure her pension and future over the back of the man.
The point is that there is usually no question of an equal relationship. He has the money and she has to hold out her hand.
Guilt lies not only with the wrong choice of the man, but also with the wrong choice of the woman. After all, she too chooses a man who apparently has wider financial scope than she does.
As a conscious woman you should assume equality. Don't make retirement or future dependent on finding a husband. Take your own responsibility. Go to study, work and earn money yourself, not live on your husband's earnings.
An equal society starts with you.
Of course it is different when it comes to having children. If both then decide that one of them, usually the woman, will take care of the children, then the man must also bear the financial consequences.
In my opinion it should be, people come together voluntarily because they love each other, not support each other. If it doesn't work, you split up and everyone keeps what they brought in. So everyone on a prenuptial agreement.
That's not falang putting his Thai sweetheart aside. That is 2 people who are equal and take care of their children for themselves and together.
Wonder if it would be arranged legally in Thailand in such a way that the falang can buy his own land / house, in a divorce everyone basically keeps what is his / her and the other does not accrue rights just because she is married, how many Thai women would still marry a falang.
We would then find out that the predominant motive was after all financial security and gain and not great love.
Of course no objection if they voluntarily agree otherwise.
So I do not agree with Peter's statement that it says more about the man than about the woman. The woman makes herself dependent by not looking for the right equal partner, but by wanting better financially.
That is not emancipation, not true love, that is dependence, which you break up later.
A society could better focus on giving everyone equal opportunities through education. A social society in which everyone has equal opportunities and not like in Thailand where money and origin count too much.
I know it's a Utopia, I dream too much.
In most cases, a Thai man takes care of nothing at all in a divorce, Thai standards are adhered to. When it comes to a falang, he agrees who must meet higher moral standards.
But isn't the point here is that one knows in advance what kind of relationship one is getting into? For whatever reason, the other is often less fortunate and therefore more dependent on the other, but you are in love or love each other. After that you build up a life together in the Netherlands or in Thailand and in the latter case that is a lot more complicated without a Thai partner, isn't it? Then I think there may be something in return, I think you do everything together in any combination, but that is my humble opinion!
Surprisingly, everyone agrees with the statement. However, I don't know many farangs who behave as such (on the basis of equality). Usually the Thai woman receives appropriate shopping money and she has to find out for herself for financial support to parents or children. Leaving your entire income and assets, partly to her, is not done for most farangs.
Buying a house in Thailand, in my opinion, is more motivated by prestige for the Thai ladies living here than from a retirement idea and that also applies to buying gold jewelry. After all, when people live and work here, they build up a pension themselves. Buying a house for the future, when you will only emigrate in 10 or 20 years? By that time the house is completely worn out and uninhabitable!
Certainties and equality. Leave her your pension or arrange something for it - give her the moral support and financial resources to develop herself - your income and assets are also hers and vice versa. And finally: teach her to save or handle money, because that is something most Thais have never heard of!
Bit of a black and white statement IMHO.
Thai ladies indeed want their future to be secured, but how and the way in which the shoe sometimes wrings.
They often have an age difference. That is already bitter because there is a 99% chance that the older partner dies first and the lady is left alone. In that case it is only logical that the lady wants to have things arranged. Many also do not marry before the law because they think that the lady finds it more important to marry before Buddha. A lady likes that towards the family, but also knows that she is not entitled to anything if the signatures are not there. So in that case she will rather try in a different way, country, house in her name, etc. Furthermore, most people in Thailand have never heard of retirement etc, so a lady will always try to have her sheep on dry land before the partner dies.
For the falang who gets married, it is therefore also important to provide a bit of education towards the partner, with regard to pensions, etc. Arrangements on paper is 1, but as long as your partner does not understand how things work, it will therefore continue to wring because you think so well arranged, but she thinks why doesn't that cheap charlie want to buy a house or land.
I myself am less bothered by the age difference (I'm 32 she's 29…) but we regularly have discussions about money. For example, she wants to buy land for later and I don't. Her argument is that it is now cheap and will only decrease in value. My counter-argument is that I have to pay for it but I cannot derive any rights from it, plus you never know whether you want to live in the same place later, whether a karaoke bar will be built next to it, yes or no, and more of those things.
Building something together ala, but things like land and a house you, as a farang partner, have no right to later if things go wrong. It is possible, if you buy them after you are married and through the courts. But you can be right according to Thai law, but try to get it. So you first have to make sure that she sells everything and then you also have to get the money.
For me it is no longer normal that as a man you also protect your own interests. For example, I would not marry a Dutch woman under community of property in the Netherlands.
For me it is also the case that I suffer from a skewed income relationship with both Dutch ladies and Thai women. Albeit a bit more extreme with a Thai lady as a Dutch one. So then I would also run into issues such as a huge partner alimony with a Dutch person if things go wrong. Add to that the fact that I work in a field in which the chance of divorces (given the practice…) is extra high. In both cases, both the Thai lady and the Dutch lady, I would be careful before getting married.
It also depends on the stage you're in. I've been together with my girlfriend for a year and a half now and I think it's still too early to put all kinds of things in her name, land or houses, etc. Furthermore, I don't make a fuss about money in daily dealings, she gets something extra from me and is free to do with it what she wants. She gives some of it to her father and sometimes sister. I only sometimes warn her that I find her sister irresponsible with money (has a child, husband no income, pregnant with a second child, but does quit her job to work on the market) but otherwise that is her business.
I assume that you must be prepared to lose all the money you invest in Thailand. I also sometimes buy gold, etc. for my girlfriend as a gift and I don't mind, but investments such as land and houses I am a bit more reserved with, or you have to be able to cover it adequately, or be married under Thai law so that you can at least you are entitled to 50%. I also maintain her, i.e. take care of all daily bills, etc. She has a job and that money is for her alone, so she also saves it for later, or for land, etc.
What makes these stories so difficult is that you have different types of falang from poor to rich, different ladies from poor to rich, and then also differences between the legislation, culture and customs in Thailand and the Netherlands and then also different opinions about what is good and what is not. This makes it very difficult to give an unequivocal answer.
Hello BA,
You write that if you are married under Thai law, you are entitled to 50% of the property.
I never knew that, to be honest, when we got married back then.
Does this apply to all possessions, land, house, car and so on?
Particularly for the land, I wonder how that works, because a foreigner cannot own land, can he?
Do you perhaps also know what happens when there are children in the marriage?
Hank,
I honestly don't know about children.
I do know that it is like that in Thailand. Everything you owned before your marriage will remain your property. And ditto for her.
If you are married and you get joint property, so houses, cars, etc. then it automatically becomes shared property, even if it is in her name. For houses and land, this means that in the event of a divorce you can enforce in court that you are entitled to 50%. The things can never be in your name, but you can force her to hand over 50% in cash, so buy you out as it were.
With all due respect I read the stories above.
What I wonder now is the following , when a Thai man and woman live together or are married , what about if one of the partners dies ?
What then is the future for the woman or man?
It is often the case that these have no assets, but debts.
The future is also not often thought of by Thai people for later.
Exceptions .
I can think and say a lot more about this, but I don't want to now!
Dear Richard
I do want to answer your question. And do that with another question.
What would you like that man to arrange for his wife when he is no longer there?
He earns just enough to survive.?
There are quite a few people here on the Blog. With what they call their ability.
So enough money to leave their Thai partner well cared for. If you then read how these people are busy with all kinds of constructions. To make sure that in God's name
Let that Thai partner get as little of their assets as possible
Those farangs do think about how they are going to leave their partner behind.
Preferably without 1 cent
With all due respect, that does matter, don't you want an equal relationship and leave each other well cared for both in the event of divorce and death, years of joy and sorrow and/or lived a life together for quite a few years?
Can you then say that a Thai partner (man/woman) does not do that either?
Dear Monica,
I just asked a question here.....
Furthermore, I have not stated that Thai partner does not do that!
You are talking about years of joys and sorrows and quite a few years of a life
led .
I haven't talked about that either.
According to Thai law, in a divorce, only what has been built up during an official marriage is shared.
Everything that was owned by the partners before the marriage remains with the partners and is not shared.
Great system.
No matter how you look at it, why does one partner have to take care of the other partner after a divorce?
Why should I leave my ex=partner well cared for in the event of a divorce?
Children is another chapter, the partners have a joint duty of care, something that is taken with a grain of salt in Thailand, unfortunately.
If one of the marriage partners dies, the deceased's inheritance lapses
partner to the wife AND the children.
If the deceased partner had a pension, that pension often, but not always, continues for the surviving partner.
And “prepaid alimony”
brrrrrrr
When a marriage is over, it's over.
Marriage, and especially in Thailand, is very often a business arrangement.
It would be very useful if people saw marriage not only as a “close bonding of two souls” but also, and above all, as a semi-business arrangement.
And yes, I learned the first time, in the Netherlands, I am almost ruined financially, it took me ten years to get over it.
That will never happen to me again.
Yes, I married the Thai counterpart, and we both knew that our marriage was largely business.
And, Monique, it went and goes fine.
And yes, I have arranged all the matters that must and can be arranged, when I get out that is.
Different conditions apply in the event of a divorce……………………..
One last comment on the State Pension in Thailand.
That is a maximum of 800 (eight hundred) baht per month.
And only 18% of the population has a pension or is entitled to a pension from a company or government.
And Chris, you are absolutely right about the spending habits of most Thais.
Often completely under the motto: "We'll see you tomorrow!"
An acquaintance of mine has a government salary of 120,000 baht per month, net.
But he does pay nearly 65,000 baht a month in all kinds of installments.
Around pay packet day, the cars purchased on installments are used for a large-scale supply trip to Big C, Makro and Tesco.
Upon return, the purchased goods are unloaded with great lamentation in such a way that neighbors can see how much is being purchased.
Halfway through the month, often only Mama is on the menu………….
Dear Peter,
Completely agree with the statement and can't add much to it.
My wife is also a hard worker and certainly in her family is expected to work
is becoming.
Have two children of her own, so if something should go wrong she has a house, land, car and money in the bank.
So think this is the normal course of events and she also works for it.
Will also immediately help something out of the world, the Thai will receive a pension from the government.
It's not much but… they get it.
Good position.
Regards, Erwin
It's great that it's so well organized for you, so it can be.
And quite rightly so, a job, two children and a household, a very active woman, so who cares who brings in more money.
Dear Monica,
You should see it this way, you have a relationship, a family and if things go wrong you will have to share everything (I think).
Here in the Netherlands you have also lost half and the same money for Thailand.
She has everything there and I here.
I sometimes get so tired of all the negative stories about whether or not to build a house, whether or not to have a motor, etc.
You take on a challenge where you know that things can go wrong, but can also go right
Should I just see my Thai wife as unequal and let her walk behind me…
no not for me.
Thanks for your comment.
Greetings, Erwin
After all the responses, just a few comments:
1. the average savings amount says very little because the distribution of savings over the population is rather skewed (not normally distributed). In mathematical terms; the variance is very, very high. 90% of Thai's savings are in 70.000 SAVINGS accounts containing at least 1 million Baht.
2. the majority of the Thai population receives no or only a small pension because they do not have a permanent job at a company, but work in agriculture, do casual work or work in the informal sector (from taxi driver to market vendor). With a female surplus, this means that there are more single older women who have to take care of their financial future alone.
3. the rich women don't have any problem. They don't actually have to work for the salary either. (Some of my students spend more money per week than the monthly starting salary when they graduate)
4. For a vast minority of Thai women, they secure their financial future by marrying or living with an expat or extorting money from an expat.
5. the other Thai women do not save money but buy a house, gold and/or a piece of land in their native region: close to family and old friends, a piece of land where you can farm, a house without financing costs and perhaps even more work a little while you can (alter clothes, iron, cook, sell fruit)
6. Many Thai people are short-term thinkers, unable to plan or budget and start thinking about their financial future when they are 10 to 15 years away from retirement.
7. consumerism is rampant. Extra income is often spent immediately (see the crowds in the malls on the weekend after the day the Thai received their salary) or gambled away (in the hope of getting rich quickly). Rather a tablet or flat screen now than a pocket money after your retirement. Who then lives who then takes care of her family.
Dear Chris,
My wife's mother has never worked for a company or agency, has always been a stay-at-home mother and yes, she grows rice.
She gets a pension anyway and I know from my environment that there are other women who get that and those are women who are very poor like so many others.
Can you explain this to me then?
She was also surprised (no insurance taken out either).
Regards, Erwin
hello Eric,
No, I can't explain that. In any case, it is not a pension according to the applicable rules. Just checked with my wife who is the manager of three construction companies. So if they receive a monthly payment, it is from someone (not a government agency, company or insurance company) who gives it voluntarily and does so out of charity or for some other reason.
@ Chris and Erwin Fleur The facilities for the elderly in Thailand are extremely limited and the Thai state pension is too low for a reasonable life. Currently, the monthly allowance for the elderly between 60 and 69 years is 600 baht, 700 baht for the elderly between 70 and 79, 800 baht for the elderly between 80 and 89 and 1.000 baht for the elderly aged 90 and older.
The Social Security Office has been collecting pension contributions since 1999. The pension fund will start paying out next year. 5.000 employees are eligible for this. They receive up to 3.000 baht per month.
The previous government established a pension scheme for informal workers, but the current government has still not activated it.
(Source: Bangkok Post)
Dear Dick,
Just checked this with my wife and what you said is correct.
From the age of 60 they get 500 (in the case of her mother).
Thanks Chris and Dick for the response.
Regards, Erwin
Securing the future for the Thai Lady's:
Again n”nice statement;Khun-Peter…
Because of my more than 20 years of Thailand experience with unfortunately / or perhaps fortunately having had several relationships, one thing is certain for me! Thai ladies are definitely not short-term thinkers. Despite many Thai 'living with the day', they are certainly busy with their Future! And would prefer to make financial agreements after a while of "courtship" about their maintenance / if the Farang is again a work slave in the Netherlands! Also, I'm getting less and less interested in discussing money with a Thai person at all, because most still think that the "coins" hang on the tree here.
Once they are in the Netherlands, they also squeak differently, but they go for it!
For the family of course in Isaan/where again no harvest has been done because there has been too little rain!!! Should I continue…..?
Gr;Willem Scheveningen…
Perhaps the statement is too nuanced, that a person, regardless of gender or region of origin, wants to ensure a good future, that goes without saying. The way ben wants to ensure this can differ per group (as far as you can place a unique individual under a certain group). Then you are left with other questions such as partners who are unfamiliar with each other's habits and abilities: how much money does the farang partner have available? How does the Thai arrange care for family? How do you spend (invest) your money for the future (gold, shares, real estate, …)? These are of course the questions that an individual faces and where it is possible to make rough generalities about a stereotyped group.
In any case, in a normal relationship you are emotionally dependent on each other. Financially, the full-time worker will quickly create a situation in which the part-time or non-working partner is wholly or partly dependent on the full-timer. It seems logical to me that you put things in order together and think about old age, the loss of a partner (he and she) due to death or relationship stop, etc. What does this mean for finances, assets, right of residence? A normal couple tries to think about that. Someone who lives from day to day still finds himself.
Ps: Hans I posted an email from the ministry about the duty to report in your Oranje loper blog.
@ RobV.
I am also interested in the e-mail from the ministry regarding the duty to report.
Could you post it here or email it to me [email protected]?
Dear Henk, you can read the explanation / explanation of the ministry (what the situation is with the reporting obligation for tourists in NL) in my message at the bottom of Hans's blog: https://www.thailandblog.nl/column/hans-geleijnse/oranjeklant/ I would also like to send you the original emails this afternoon. 🙂
Since this blog is not about visas or reporting obligations, I will leave it at that. Further messages can better be placed in the correct blog. It is a pity that comments on older blogs dry up so quickly (they are sometimes no longer visible within a few hours under “latest comments” in the left column) and then quickly 'never' be seen by other readers. Hence my short PS to Hans because my update may well have been missed.
Dear Rob, I agree with the thrust of the statement that it is normal for Thai women to want to secure their future (who doesn't, by the way?), but even more so with your comment that it is a pity that reactions are quickly suppressed and so even dry up, or melt away like snow before the Thai sun.