Statement of the week: You have a moral obligation to discuss important social and political developments with your partner
If you live in the Netherlands or Thailand with your Thai partner, it is only natural that you and your partner become part of society. This means not only learning the language and culture, but also being aware of social and political developments.
People develop and so does society. In order not to lag behind the facts, you need to know what is going on, which way is the country heading? It is only natural that on the one hand you discuss 'the Pieten discussion' or Rutte's latest antics and on the other hand you talk about the 'this is my country' protest song or the last orders of the junta.
With my partner I talked daily about all kinds of topics related to Thailand and the Netherlands. In this way we got to know each other's country, society and culture better. By talking about history, current events and politics, the bond with the foreign country increased. The bond between us also developed stronger and stronger as we got to know each other's insights, views and personality more and more.
If you don't talk about the state of affairs in your first and second home country, you won't be able to integrate properly, if you don't understand what is happening, you will remain on the sidelines. You or your partner are not just 'guests' in the new country of residence, you want to count in your new home country. And the most important way to become one is to regularly talk to your partner about everything that is going on in society.
That is why the proposition: you have a moral obligation to discuss important social and political developments with your partner. Do you agree or disagree with this statement? Then respond and tell us why you have the same or a different opinion.
About this blogger
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Regular visitor to Thailand since 2008. Works in the accounting department of a Dutch wholesaler.
In his spare time he likes to go cycling, walking or reading a book. Mainly non-fiction, especially the history, politics, economy and society of the Netherlands, Thailand and countries in the region. Likes to listen to heavy metal and other noise
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Partly agree with the statement, but moral duty sounds rather heavy in my opinion. Not everyone is interested in political or social issues. In addition, these are matters that are difficult to fathom, especially since most politicians have a hidden agenda and are creative with the truth. That is why many people are more than fed up with the subject. And if one or both partners are completely uninterested in the subject, you won't talk about it either. Moral obligation seems rather compelling to me.
If it's not possible, you can't get it out either, but then there are probably other ways (if you are the foreigner yourself) to get to know your new country of residence, or (if your partner is the foreigner) to give your partner a to give them a handle with which they can get to know the new country of residence and not remain in a small world of work-eat-drink-sleep and really have no idea what is going on in the country. I would like to hear other ways you can integrate, or is it okay not to integrate and not encourage your partner to do so?
Hello namesake,
take a look at the definition of integration and then it seems clear to me that this is true for living in the Netherlands but absolutely not for living in Thailand. Here in Thailand, a foreigner will never, ever get a certain legal status. Not owning land, applying for an annual extension of residence, reporting every 90 days, no local health insurance, etc.
You also talk about learning a language, of course I also tried this and speak some words. Can save me with this in combination with English, show pictures and this for 12 years.
Being able to fully speak and read the Thai language I cannot manage, I have great admiration for those who can. Speak and read English, German, French and Spanish yourself. Could also learn simple Italian and Portuguese, but I can't master the Thai tonal language (partly due to partial deafness).
Your statement that it is a moral duty to discuss social and political matters with my partner seems rather pedantic to me, I immediately had to think of the well-known Dutch finger: you will and you must. Too bad I really do what seems best for me and my family.
Should a moral duty/responsibility be matched by a legal right? Integration, integration is just part of it, even if you don't get a straight line, right? The fact that the Netherlands then goes the other way and makes it legally mandatory with a load of thresholds and checkpoints is of course the other extreme. But speaking the language a bit, following everyday things and talking about it with your partner or friends is the least you can expect from someone in his or her new home country?
Dear Rob,
of course I talk to my family members about various daily matters, also in English by the way. I have really been to all continents of this world (except Antartica) and have always been able to save me in terms of language. Sometimes with hands and feet but I always succeeded.
Moral duty/accountability and legal right?? Civic integration and integration? Assume that you also know that a foreigner has no legal say in this. I contribute more than enough to the Thai economy (2 daughters MBA and 1 son in high school). For Thais, family really is number one and I am always lower on the ranking. I am always friendly and polite towards other Thais, but some Thais simply hate foreigners (they are not alone in this kind of thinking, just look at the Netherlands).
I am for live and let live and am averse to unnecessary rules imposed by the government. Can't stand the Dutch who point the finger and tell them how the world should behave. Utopia does not exist and every country has its advantages and disadvantages. I really know how to behave morally responsible. However, I simply disagree with your statement hence my comments.
Thanks for the explanation dear Rob, I'm glad to hear that you do talk about the daily things that happen and that you don't shut yourself off from what happens. May also be in English, although I prefer that the immigrant tries to speak the language of the new country of residence. After all, then you show that you really want to participate in society, and not therefore not partially or completely closed off to the society in which you live. Incidentally, almost every reader agreed a few years ago that learning the language is part of it. However, it is not for everyone.
You're family, aren't you? As family members you put each other on 1 and then the other family, followed by.. fill it in...
https://www.thailandblog.nl/stelling-van-de-week/thais-spreken-2/
Dear Rob,
I went to school to learn Thai but I am not able to fully master the Thai language. Speak a few words, but having a whole discussion in Thai is too ambitious for me. In addition, many Thais prefer to avoid discussion, given the fact that one can lose face.
Family: I personally have nothing to complain about, but I have seen a lot over the years.
"Moral duty" sounds heavy but I think it's right. Maybe we should call it "moral responsibility." For many people there is already the legal obligation: integration.
Looking away and showing no interest at all is not good. You have to get to know your country of residence.
Voting turnout in the Netherlands indicates the level of political involvement in the Netherlands.
And now you suddenly want to know everything about Thai politics?
I function well in the social environment of the village, without interfering in politics or local elections.
That doesn't make any sense either, because I don't have the right to vote anyway.
The turnout percentage in the Netherlands is about 80 percent, so the political involvement is quite nice. Knowing everything is of course not necessary and there is no need to do anything, but I think it is useful to know the most important points on the agenda so that you know what is going on at a national level in society, among the people, which way things are going.
Of course you can ignore politics, don't read newspapers, don't watch news, but do you keep yourself busy with other things that are going on? What is the concern in the village? What hope do they have? Where to go if you yourself have certain problems?
I keep up with the news, and the occasional local gossip.
Furthermore, the population is not very vocal about political matters, which is not surprising in itself, because anti-government views are not very much appreciated by the Thai government.
And the government has a very fine-meshed network that reaches into the deepest capillaries of society and the villages.
In this village, and probably in all villages and towns, people live who have contacts with the Thai police, or other government departments.
I can go to the village chief for local problems, but they never really arise.
The last time was a year or so ago when I needed a new bin and I wanted to know who to ask.
He would pass that on.
I will just have to arrange matters such as hospital, tax authorities and immigration myself, but all those authorities are generally very helpful.
Oh rud,
Why would you?
Not that I'm very old, but the statement don't talk about politics and believe (on a pillow) still has some truth in it and it was already there when I was a child.
I don't come from the social corner, maybe I avoid the dogmatic drivel.
I am comfortable with the way things are now and would like to keep it that way.
The drivel you must know the country can just as well be done without interfering.
It's been a while since anyone told me what my moral duty should be. It may be a moral obligation for you, but that doesn't mean it is for me too. My experience with Thai partners is that they are very closed about their past. My current partner, 7 years old, has only had 4 years of primary education, can barely read or write. We speak Thai with each other, offered to learn English many times declined. She also has no idea where the Netherlands is, TV programs such as the third Tuesday in September with all the splendor and other cultural events, I have to drag her to the computer for that and the attention is still marginal. So go ahead with your moral obligation. I myself have given English lessons to adult Thai people here every Saturday from 5 a.m. to 10 p.m. for 12 years, pro bono, so volunteer work. The last two years Thai lessons to older expats, mainly Americans, also volunteer work. A combination of Thai literature and culture, that knowledge does not come from my current and previous Thai partners, those interests were diversely different, but from an inner urge to know and understand more about the country where I have been staying for ten years now.
Nice to hear that you help people around you, then you show social involvement and interest in your new country of residence in other ways, so you are not on the sidelines but have a different way to integrate. Also fine.
The first part of the comment is the same as my girlfriend
Luckily her english is better than my thai
Where the Netherlands is, they have no idea here in the Isaan
But also when Obama was here on television once, and we watched together
I asked my girlfriend, know that man, answers no
I say is the big boss of America.
I gave up moral duty a long time ago.
Apart from the somewhat nagging nature of the statement (moral duty), things naturally go wrong with the definition of what constitutes “major social and political developments”. Is this what the NOS news broadcasts in the evening, or what people think on Twitter? Are you going to discuss Fakenews with each other?
And many people also choose not to be politically active, but simply to live their own lives, and they are right if that makes them happy. I like to talk about world politics, but I do notice that there are many people who do not like this, because they often have an attitude of “you are mainly a victim, and your politicians cannot change”. And when you have a partner like that, you sometimes destroy more than you involve people.
Integration can be done in many ways, and here in Thailand I really don't get involved in politics here, because before you know it you have problems if you say something that you mean. Socially, we do have the necessary conversations about quality education, care for the elderly, support for the weak…..but that stems from the fact that we like to contribute in our own way to helping the poorest and weakest here in Thailand .
Talking about politics is like talking about football. If you don't do it yourself, you won't get any further. I don't see any moral obligation whatsoever. Whether I am interested in what is happening or not, no one is going to impose on me. The fact that I occasionally watch news reports and read newspapers and get something about what is happening here in Thailand is because I do not close my eyes. That doesn't mean I'm doing this to integrate. I do that because I might find it interesting. And if it doesn't interest you, so be it.
moral duty; think if you live in Thailand with your Thai partner you automatically get things from Thailand, you learn from her/him his political preference, what is happening in the country and you automatically answer that from how you see it yourself. And so it goes with Thai culture and other achievements.
Of course, the Thai also gets a sense of what is going on in the Netherlands, and so also a piece of the culture.
They know that we also prefer (or sometimes want) the Dutch pot, they also know the royal family and are only a little too curious about how things are going in the Netherlands.
In a relationship I see that more as an automatic interest from both sides.
One learns by doing and that goes back and forth.
Calling it a moral duty is going a bit too far for me.
Getting to know your country of residence is already quite a task!
In my opinion, a moral obligation to discuss important social and political developments with your partner fails for 80 percent among Dutch cohabiting and married people.
Let alone that this should happen to a non-Dutch person, regardless of the language barrier!
There are enough hurdles to overcome on a simple communicative level!
But what are you talking about with your partner? Or are all those couples sitting quietly on the couch and one is watching TV while the other is reading a book or sitting on the tablet?
And how do you get to know your new country of residence or how do you ensure that your partner gets to know the new country? Do you learn each other's language or do you opt for (coal?) English and take the language barrier for granted? Will you or your partner not remain very dependent on the other? If 1 of the 2 suddenly falls away, can the other still manage?
Totally disagree with the statement. Whether you want to discuss socially and/or politically charged topics with your partner depends entirely on the mutual interests in that regard. And talking about it is one thing, but really discussing it firmly is quite another.
I sometimes talk about politics with my partner. She knows how I feel about it, and most of the time she agrees with me. But those aren't really lengthy discussions. That is limited to a few comments, and that's it.
I also suspect that most Thais do not feel the need for discussions about socially sensitive topics or about politics.
Regards, Leo
Do not agree with. Not necessary at all
How then to integrate in the new homeland? Or is that not necessary?
Politics remains very subjective and providing information will turn out to be more influencing. The writer wants to discuss “Rutte's antics” and with that he already indicates his political color. Shouldn't that "moral duty" be omitted. And if you live in Thailand, don't tell your opinion about politics and certainly not about .. . otherwise you will be imprisoned.
I have dressed up my language a bit so as not to make it boring text. And yes I am in the social-democratic corner. But I could tell my love objectively about Dutch political parties and events. Of course we also talked about how I felt about something and how she felt about it. But also the other way around, she told me about the state of affairs in Thailand and how she felt about it. This way I understood Thailand better and my dear.
You can talk just as well or badly about these things with Thai people as you can with Dutch people. The butcher may not be waiting for a chat, but among friends it should work out fine. Although my love always told me not to put my opinion too emphatically on Facebook because not everyone can deal with it normally.
dear joseph…
It's just not true. It's not about your opinion of Thai politics, but about the way you say and do things. I haven't kept my mouth shut for 12 years. I discuss current affairs daily with my wife and with my students. It is not about what I think (I usually don't say that, but I act as a journalist who asks the questions) but that the students start thinking for themselves. I've never had a visitor tell me that I've earned a vacation week in Saraburi.
If you want to be part of Thai society you have to learn the Thai language, that's the only way.
Of course Paul, then you can inform yourself well through all kinds of channels. But it surprises me how many Thai and Dutch people still don't speak the language or speak the language poorly after a few years abroad! How then should they become part of their new country of residence?
Learning the language is especially important if you want to find work, for pensioners that is not an option. Furthermore, there are enough English-language newspapers and websites in Thailand to follow both political and social issues. Of course learning the language would be good, but is not a requirement to understand what is going on in Thailand.
Can you do without the language? Yes, but it saves a sip on a drink. if you can follow the news yourself, understand various headlines or, for example, understand the sarcastic messages on social media. If you linger in an English-speaking circle, you can participate, but can you really fathom the new country of residence (find out about all kinds of different sources) if you don't speak the language? Do you then integrate or do you remain half an outsider who participates but is not really part of society?
And if someone thinks they can't learn the language, is there at least a helpful home front who tries to show you around in society (and I don't mean how to buy a load of beer at the supermarket, of course)?
Or is it all fine, as long as you pay and don't hold your hand, it doesn't matter if you remain an outsider?
Moral duty, moral duty what nonsense!
When we both come home, (my Thai wife and I) after a day's work, we'll have a nice chat about the food and how the working day was and other small talk, that's worth a lot more to me than I talk about those fake politics.
Dear Rob,
Is a very difficult statement if I understand that the Thai fellow man is here
totally unconcerned with it (but very soft and hidden so that no one hears it).
It's not a conversation piece for me and my wife to go deep into.
The Thai do not call this out like we do and will therefore be heard less quickly.
if so, there is pressure from the junta to keep your opinion to yourself, “otherwise.”.
We do discuss some things, but usually without any opinion from one side.
It's part of it and you can't escape it.
Kind regards,
Erwin
In a country like Thailand with very large power differences between groups (you could also call it feudal) it is very difficult to discuss current and political issues with people. That alone teaches you how this society works.
To blame for this situation is not just the current government (although many are more than happy to do so) but also all previous governments that have basically all curtailed freedom of expression. The result is that there is no good journalism in this country, no real talk shows on TV, let alone political debates (such as between party leaders before the elections). The result is also that a lot, no a lot of nonsense and untruths are told about what is happening in this country (by red and yellow, at home and abroad, often whispered what to write with the money bag in hand) and that has As a result, there are many rumors and conspiracy theories. And the few who really know how the fork in the stem are silent or are more or less forbidden to talk about it.
If you realize this, I think you are sufficiently integrated and you are discussing with this in mind.
Is it not so much the government but the powers that are the higher feudal powers) that discourage in-depth journalism, discussion, etc.? Before you know it, someone in uniform will come by and tell you to watch out. Those who do know what the situation is, they must also fear for the higher powers if they do not dare to speak up? Or contribute and, if necessary, open a booklet under a pseudonym to change something little by little.
Dear Chris,
I have had extensive and pleasant discussions with many people about social and political issues in Thailand, even the highest institution. It's not that hard, let alone very hard.
And yes, the current government has severely curtailed freedom of expression, previous governments to a lesser extent, and sometimes not at all. I recommend that you recognize that difference.
There is quite good journalism in Thailand and there are (were) quite good talk shows on television that sometimes are (were) quite rough. Tell me, how much Thai television do you watch?
I'm tired of your constant suggestions that hardly anyone knows the truth, except you, of course.
a few answers:
– we can differ on the degree of restriction of freedoms, not on the facts;
– I watch Thai TV every day, from the red Fox to the yellow FOX and a few channels in between. I don't get the most and most reliable information from there, by the way, and I would advise you not to believe much of it. My informants are eyewitnesses to current history, but I understand that you like to get your info from the FOX channels and from sources;
– as long as you do not recognize that the political culture of Thailand is different from the Dutch and the Dutch as a universal standard, you will never understand this country, but always judge, mostly on the basis of incorrect or incomplete information.
– It is indeed not so difficult to discuss with people who agree with you in advance. I don't call that arguing but political masturbation and it doesn't help this country one bit.
– I advise you to praise Prayut in Isan and discuss with some of my colleagues the blessings of Thaksin and Yingluck.