On March 18, I filed my tax return for 2024. I am Belgian, have been permanently resident in Thailand for seven years, have been married to a Thai for thirty years and have an old-age pension in the civil service system as my only source of income. I had prepared myself well, because I had to apply for a TIN number and file my tax return.
As a loyal reader of Thailandblog I have been following the postings and reactions of writers and readers on this subject for months and that has helped me a lot in that preparation. My thanks to Erik Kuijpers and especially Jozef, who, in response to a question of mine on the blog, gave me a clear, step-by-step explanation about filling in and calculating the PIT91 declaration.
I live in a village about 40 km from Nakhon Ratchasima. Following Erik Kuijpers' advice, I left my district office alone and went straight to the regional RD office of Korat.
The limited parking (maximum 20 vehicles) was full, but I was able to park my car in the parking lot of the nearby post office.
A receptionist asked for information and handed out ticket numbers to those waiting. I said I was looking for a TIN number and was not given a ticket, but was immediately directed to a desk nearby opposite the manager's office.
I had found the application form LP.10.1 on the internet (only in Thai) and filled it out in advance on the computer, thanks to Google Translate. The lady looked at the form and only asked me for a copy of my passport.
After fifteen minutes everything was ready and the documents - together with other files - were put in a folder that was presented to the 'boss' for signature. No one dared to enter the office, because he was busy with a client.
An hour later the door opened and he went to the cash register with the customer. Afterwards he signed all the documents in the folder and I got a card with the TIN number. On that occasion I showed the declaration form PIT91 that I had already filled in in advance with the computer. Because I did not have a ticket number, I was allowed into the boss's office.
He looked at the declaration form, had me fill in the TIN number and asked me for the bank receipts showing the deposits from abroad. I had collected them the day before from SCB and KASIKORN (200 THB each). I had also underlined all the deposits from abroad to make them stand out from the other transactions.
Because I had already filled in everything, he asked me why I thought I would not have to pay taxes. I told him that I was Belgian and that there was a Double Tax Agreement. And because Belgium levies the highest taxes in the world. He smiled briefly and asked me for proof of how much taxes I had already paid in Belgium. I showed him my tax form 281.11 that I received last month, which stated my taxable income and the withheld corporate tax for 2024.
Because it was a document in Dutch, he asked me for additional evidence. I didn't have any, but I handed him an Excel document in English, which detailed all my amounts received in Thailand (in EUR and THB), as well as the proportional calculations of the taxes already paid in Belgium. This was necessary because I did not transfer my entire pension to Thailand in 2024. He looked at it and it was okay.
He had me sign the PIT91 document and write down my phone number. Then we went to the cash desk where I was given a ticket in Thai with my name, TIN number, date of declaration and the message “no money to collect”. The fact that the ticket was only in Thai is probably due to the fact that my application for a TIN number was made on a Thai form. All in all, my conversation with the 'boss' had lasted less than ten minutes.
Conclusion
The first thing I noticed was that there was no government uniform to be seen here. I was surprised that everything went so smoothly. Although I was provided with all possible documents that could be requested (remembering Lung Addie's list), I was not asked for any of that. Only a copy of my passport and bank statements. But it may well be that this is not the case in all RD offices. Perhaps they themselves were surprised that all my documents had already been filled in on the PC in advance and the calculations had already been done. It certainly saves time for the civil servants who do not have to start figuring out what needs to be filled in on the documents. I compare it a bit with the extension of a stay in the immigration office. If you have all the documents in order, everything goes more smoothly.
I think that there may be a problem with the calculation of the withholding tax settled in Belgium. As a Belgian, you do not have any official document that can confirm this. And if it does exist, it is drawn up in Dutch. Tax form 281.11 is not for that purpose. It is only used to fill in my tax return in Belgium. The person in charge did agree with my Excel document with clear calculations, but I can imagine that this might not have been the case if I had ended up with one of his subordinates.
Anyway, much worry about nothing. As a Belgian you will never have to pay taxes in Thailand if you only send your pension.
Submitted by JosNT
JosNT, it's as simple as bonjour, or a piece of cake. Belgians have it easier than Dutch people; almost all of your pension is taxable exclusively in the source country. There is only one exception and that is if you have a Belgian state pension, AND live in Thailand, AND are (also) Thai national. Then Thailand is allowed to levy.
It will be different, but you already say that in your last sentence, if you bring in more than the Belgian pension.
Now that withholding tax; we call it payroll tax, you call it corporate withholding tax. I believe you can request an official document from the tax authorities in Belgium, but I don't know the details.
Did JosNT not have to pay tax in Croatia because he had already paid a high withholding tax in Belgium or because his Belgian civil servant pension is only taxable in the source country in accordance with the Belgian-Thai anti-double taxation treaty?
In other words, the legal basis and motivation of the tax office in Korat is unknown.
And that is precisely what is essential to build up jurisprudence against tax offices and tax officials who ignore international treaties.
Hopefully JosNT knows what the motivation for the government decision of the office in Koraat was.
Please share them then
It can be useful for many.
I think both but I didn't ask his motivation.
The manager was apparently very well informed about the DTA between the two countries. I had printed out the treaty in Thai and took it out of my folder. He only looked at the first page and did not even pick it up. I am certainly not the only Belgian in Korat.
My calculation on PIT91 and the Excel document clearly showed the difference between the Belgian withholding tax and the calculated tax to be paid in Thailand. My calculations were adjusted to the actual amount received on my Thai accounts because I did not transfer my entire pension. He could also see that on the tax return form 281.11.
Erik, since you mention that exception, I have a question: after my death (which will hopefully take a long time), my Thai wife is entitled to a survivor's pension. Because I was a civil servant, that is also a state pension and also fully taxable in Belgium. She will then also have to file a return with the RD. I assume that she will have to do that with her Thai ID. She will probably have to prove what the origin of the money is and what the deduction was in Belgium. But that she will not have to pay any tax in that case either. And in my opinion, her dual nationality does not play a role in this either. Or am I mistaken?
Jos, Thai Tax Law Art 40/1 concerning the levy of labour and related benefits does not distinguish between nationalities. It is about “income”, whether it is declared as “foreign sourced” by a TH or a BE. DTA TH-BE article 18 then also applies to her, and art 23 gives her a full “tax credit”. But will art 40/1 remain as it is now formulated, and will the DTA TH-BE remain the same? You have plenty of time to keep her on track before you die. After all, it is in her interest.
Thanks Jozef. Keeping her on track will be a serious task. She has no idea about administrative matters and is not interested in them at all. But I'll do my best 🙂
JosNT, after your death your wife will receive a part of your pension and that will, as you expect, qualify as a state pension, civil service pension. She is Thai, she lives in TH, and that pension is taxable in TH. Article 18-2-b of the BE-TH treaty. How high that will be? No idea, but maybe it is less than the deductions/exemptions that she has and then the levy is zero.
For the source country, BE, only TH may levy. Then BE must withdraw and how that works, on request, or on proof of residence, I do not know but you as a Belgian can easily ask. Record the procedure for her so that she knows the way later.
That nationality (partly) determines the levy is not uncommon, also in treaties that the Netherlands has concluded. In national legislation this would lead directly to 'discrimination' but in treaties between countries this is apparently still possible.
She also didn't want to know where your home address was, that must be JosNT
I was allowed to add the transferred money described as 'income' myself with my signature on the copy of the bank book made there, so no expenses.
And yes, the entire staff wears a casual dress code.
Quote
'Only a copy of my passport and bank statements'.
William Korat,
All address details were already stated on the form LP.10.1 that I had filled out in advance. That is to say, my home address as a taxpayer and also the residential code of my address. That code is on my wife's Tabien Baan and the address had to be filled in again there too.
My wife's name and 13-digit ID number were also mentioned on the said document.
Since both my wife's identity details and the residential code (different numbers) were visible to the officer, I assume that she has the ability to check things via PC and therefore I was not asked anything further.
Nice to read that it can be done differently, I myself have given up hope here, they didn't know anything about this at the TRD, we'll just wait and see.
Dear JosNT
In principle, you only have to declare that you receive a civil servant pension and a civil servant pension may and can only be taxed at any time in the source country.
TH also seems to be completely unaware of this.
Fred
Under point 5.4 of the form LP.10.1 for application of TIN number, one explicitly asks for the type of income. There I filled in 'Government Pension Belgium'.
I don't think it's right to put all RD offices in Thailand under the same name. In RD Korat they are certainly aware of it, I experienced that myself. It is a large office where many foreigners of different nationalities make their appearance.
Good to read that you have benefited from my explanation on how to fill in the PND/PIT91. This form can indeed be used if you declare income in respect of Thai Tax Law article 40, paragraph 1: income related to 'employment', either through government or through an employer.
One more week and that will close the period for filing Thai Tax in person at a TRD office. For those who are planning to do so this week:
1- make a calculation on paper/in a spreadsheet of how much Thai baht you brought in in 2024. Show the total with bank transfers from BE/NL. For example: from ING (to Wise) to BKB.
2- Divide the total Thai baht by the total euros transferred. You now have your average '2024-฿-rate'.
3- Now calculate how much AOW/ABP/company pension/BE pension/savings2023 per item you have brought in. Because savings 2023 are not taxed, you keep that outside the return. But of course you have to prove that savings via your bank transactions.
4- The total Thai baht transferred minus savings 2023 now becomes your taxable income.
You enter this amount on the PND91 form.
5- Then you subtract the “deductions and allowances” from that, and calculate how much Thai Tax you have to pay.
6- You then reduce the amount to be paid by your ABP/AOW(reduction)/BE pension. (PND91, page 2, point 13) You must demonstrate this 'withholding tax'.
7- You have tax left to pay.
If you have only brought in savings for 2023, file a 'zero' return and ask for a TIN.
With a single ABP/AOW/BE pension to be declared, you will always end up with 0 baht tax to be paid.
Click on:
https://www.thailandblog.nl/lezersvraag/hoe-voorkom-je-dure-valkuilen-bij-belastingzaken-in-thailand/
and scroll to: February 28, 2025 at 05:26 am
Jozef, aren't you confusing two treaties? Belgian pensions are treated differently than NL pensions; there is even a Belgian civil service pension that is taxable in Thailand as I have explained here several times. You are now lumping everything together.
You will have read here yourself that Belgian pensions are not taxed by a number of civil servants and are even completely excluded from the tax return.
Every 'emigrant declaration', whether it is for a BE or a NL citizen, requires a personal approach.
The taxability of the AOW is still a question mark that I have to think about deeply. The WIA seems to me to have more of a connection with 'employment' and therefore to be taxed in Thailand.
Fortunately, in a week the crowds will have died down somewhat.
Erik, we don't have to explain the tax treaties every time. That the one of BE is very different from that of BE, you and I know, a few others, and the rest don't care. I the 'handyman', you the expert.
But what I said is basically correct: a BE 'state pension' yields a full "withholding tax" of 100%, unless someone reports receiving a pension on other grounds, or is faced with a tax to be paid of >฿75K. In that case, a total transfer of >฿1,5M has been discussed. My example calculations were there to serve those who consider PIT91 to be of the order of "Abracadabra". At ฿800K, every BE'er, but also most NL'ers, is helped. Up to ฿1M it is all still doable. then the big bangers, but they no longer need me.
Thus: I am about the common denominator, a personal approach is not possible with the limited information and data that is provided, and that is not the intention in the case of Thailandblog. I am concerned with giving the general public an idea of what to expect and to what extent it will affect their wallets. If they want more, they have your email address. I have the strong impression that 'they' do not even realize that they will be worse off with the new treaty. No more AOW reduction, no C-form and levy-company pension-refund, no ฿410K exemptions, and no free tax rate of another ฿150K.
One more thing about the discussion on the taxability of the AOW: I tend to agree with JosS's position: "23/6 never comes into play" (Joop S says on March 20, 2025 at 10:18). The WIA, on the other hand, does, because it is an employee insurance.
And finally about “that it is expected that Immigration will ask for that in the future (for a TIN) if you want to renew your annual stamp.” That is absolutely not the case. Just as little as what a certain Janneman reported that there are fines for not filing a Thai tax return. The number of people who reported being sent away without a TIN is greater than those who saw a return honored. You see the same if you take a look at the German-language forums, for example. If NL does indeed get priority in levying income, what will TH care whether or not you show up with your “foreign-source-income”. Spend it, as much as possible, that is what TH prefers.
TIN…….
If you have a Thai ID number, you can simply file a report under your ID number.
All that fuss with that TIN number?
No need for that.
Come on, Hans thinks, I'm going to put my two cents in too, just at the last minute of paying Thai tax in person. You can't log in online with the PIN on your pink TH ID. In person at a TRD office, the PIN is converted into a TIN. After an accepted declaration, you can log in online with that PIN converted into a TIN. That's how it is and no other way.
I had already given a reaction to a previous blog. Last Thursday I went to the revenue department in Nong Hoi (= Chiang Mai city) for my tax return. The lady I reported to did not know what to do and called her boss. He handed me the extract of the treaty Belgium-Thailand in Thai with the message that no tax return has to be filed by the Belgians since we already pay withholding tax in Belgium every month. But apparently the employees in many tax offices are not informed (informed) of this.
Once again proof that it is a mess and a farce. Until such time as order is not restored there and there is a lack of knowledge of the matter I will stay away. In one place there are Belgians with a simple pension who suddenly have to pay almost 5 Baht after 100.000 minutes of calculation and in another place that same person is simply sent on his way.
Man, man, man……, what nonsense again. A simple pension that yields ThB100K in taxes. How do you come up with that. The lack of intellect is rampant. That you stay away is your choice.
Not everything written here is made up, with my “simple” 65000 bath/month government pension the local TRD office quickly wanted to give me a tax assessment of 100.000 bath, approximately!
Double tax agreement, unknown, they were going to inquire but I am still waiting..
I received my TIN, can I use it to create a profile on the TRD E-filing website?
And who actually receives proof of his/her completed return at the local TRD office?
A verbal statement by the local TRD employee that we Belgians do not have to pay taxes is nice, but worthless as evidence.
Too many ambiguities, high time for a clear and transparent overview of how, what, where. Only then can we help each other.
Thank you !
Belgianretired, that clear and transparent overview is in this blog. The knowledge is here but unfortunately not with the services in Thailand. So you have to prepare yourself; unfortunately it is not different.
The BE-TH treaty is printable; I have given the link here several times but here it is again: https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/nation/belgium_t.pdf I assume you know the way to the text in Dutch?
Tick where the pension paragraph is. Go with it to the regional office, not to the provincial and certainly not to the municipal office. Take a Thai with you and write down the name of the official who is looking at your case. If he comes up with an amount, ask for the calculation.
Depending on their knowledge, two things can happen. Your Belgian pension remains completely outside the declaration and the assessment is then zero. Or they take your 780.000 thb income and you get deductions: 60 k for you, 60 k for your married woman without income, 100 k acquisition costs and 190 k deduction for 65 and older. Then your obligation is 14.500 thb. Set against that the withholding tax withheld in BE; no idea how high it is but many times the Thai tax. You are entitled to tax credit according to the treaty and then your assessment is also zero thb.
Yes, unfortunately you have to be very assertive. In our countries the tax authorities have specialized departments, in Thailand it is all arranged locally and you have to look for that knowledge, or bring it yourself… You could also hire a Thai advisor ONCE; he will arrange it as it should be and you can live off that for years.
It's a mess in Thailand! But what do you expect when people can 'buy' their jobs...
Hi Erik, many thanks for the extra tips, I already had a printed version of the DTA BE-TH, why the extra 100.000 processing costs, I had also partially prepared a PDD 91 document, and in which section number of the appendix with deductible items does this come? I don't see it..
Groet
Dear 'Retired from BE in TH', still a bit of a strange story both from the side of the tax official and from your side. The BE-TH tax treaty is available in both BE and TH on Thailandblog. Erik Kuipers gave you a link to the Thai-language -, here is a link to an English-language version. https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/nation/belgium_e.pdf
If you had reported earlier, we could have benefited more from your experiences, than now from your unjustified indignation. “That is the only way we can help each other.”
You say you have a government pension. Then article 18 is important to you on page 23. Just read it. Furthermore, for BE people it concerns article 23, paragraph 2, subsection a, first sentence on page 28. This article deals with the agreed “tax credit” between BE and TH. Which means that you may deduct your paid tax in BE from the tax amount to be paid in TH, (but never more than the amount that should have been paid in TH, to prevent tax being reclaimed in TH that was paid in BE.)
You say you brought in 12 x ฿65K/฿780K TH, and that an assessment of ฿100K was calculated. That would only have been possible if the official could have shown you that you live in TH with more than ฿100K per month. At ฿1,3M after deduction of ฿410K in discounts and the free first bracket of ฿150K, an amount remains, ฿890K, that justifies such an assessment. Did you have a calculation with you yourself? And why wait for the BE-TH treaty. You could have brought that with you yourself!
But okay, pay attention: print out https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/english_form/030265PIT91.pdf
You can now prepare your own calculation and your own concept PIT 2024 return. What follows is an example. You must adjust amounts if you have transferred more or less than ฿780K.
Page 1 speaks for itself.
On page 2 under A, fill in at point 1: ฿780K; at point 2: ฿190K; point 3 becomes: ฿590K. At point 4: ฿100K. At point 5 thus: ฿490K. Point 6: if married ฿120K. Point 7 is then: ฿370K.
Point 11, your taxable income: ฿370K. Point 12, your Thai tax: ฿14,5K. Fill in at point 12. (About the first ฿150K: ฿0; about the second ฿150K: 5%, and about the remaining ฿70K: 10%). At point 13 you fill in the same: ฿14,5K. And so at point 14: The same goes for ฿0,05K. Say and write: Thai baht zero point zero!
You are not finished yet: on page 2 under B at point 4 bottom box: fill in ฿190K. Ditto at point 6.
Now the attachment: fill in points 1, 2 and 19 (I assume a married status.) If multiple deductions, fill in and calculate them yourself. That was it.
Take your own draft tax return to a regional office. You run the risk of being sent away to a “lower” one because of your zero return. Print out the tax treaty in Thai, for the official, as well as the one in NL, for yourself. Show the transferred ฿780K with a statement from your TH bank, and with a printout from your BE bank, whether or not supported by a printout from Wise, for example. Well, that should work now. If you are refused, call the 'supervisor'!
Hi Jozef, many thanks for your detailed explanation of how to do it, I had downloaded the PIT91 earlier and supplemented it, as far as possible with the general data, personal details, and the deductions to which we are entitled (married, and spouse without income). I already had the DTA in Thai, perhaps I should have mentioned it better.
We'll see where we land.
mvg
Will help you out of your dream, that was also the case here in a local trd office, they asked 80.000 bht, so the response you give is not correct,
Jean, every reason to read this blog and to be assertive. Knowledge of tax treaties is thin on the ground in Thai tax offices.
I wonder if you got proof that you reported there. You must have read that Immigration is expected to ask that in the future if you want to renew your year stamp.
Dear Erik Kuijpers
Can you please explain to me the official message about immigration. What I know is that for the foreigners working in Thailand it is in force
Jean, no, it is not official yet. But I see it more and more on the sites of Thai tax advisors. I assume it will come at some point and I remember that a reader at the tax office got a 'note' for the Immigration…
It would be the simplest way to seal that up. You have to go through Immigration once a year anyway.
You can read that immigration story here.
https://www.thailandblog.nl/leven-thailand/via-het-belastingkantoor-naar-immigration/
An office where the working language is Thai and they even make a calculation error has spread this rumor
And this continues via the internet.
sigh
Rvhm, an unjustified sigh. I've been reading this for a year and believe it. We'll see... If Hans Bos says so, then it will have happened.
Dear Erik. With all due respect and appreciation for all the good you have done and are still doing: be careful with this kind of faith. Let me tell you this: I have been in TH since 2012. Came here very early with pre-retirement. In 2014 in Korat I went with my wife to the TRD Korat. When I saw the SVB-AOW annual statement they did not want to help me any further. Stayed with NL, was their comment. My other contribution of baht from pension and savings could not be softened either. In addition: I was advised against filing a tax return. Because, as the official explained to me, once in their systems it could trigger checks and controls going back 10 years. So: not not filing a tax return could be annoying, no, filing a tax return would be the opposite. That was in Korat in 2014. I did get a TIN. I left it at that until this year.
Due to sad family circumstances we were less than 2016 in TH from 2023 to 180. But 2024 was the time: back to TH for good. Other circumstances forced us to live far away from the in-laws, it became Chiangmai.
Earlier this month I went to the TRD Hang Dong with ING/BKB/Wise printouts. I showed a ready-made PIT91, with your calculation in English of art 23/6, a printout of the DTA NL-TH in Thai, etc. etc.: they wouldn't start. Familiar with tax treaties: if a 'farang' did not come for a 'Corporate Tax' return and only for a PIT return, then no return of the latter. In the end there were 3 officials around me. One gave my wife an extensive explanation, the other had delved into the texts of the DTA NL-TH, both those in Thai and those in English. The third kept repeating: no sir, no 'necessecelie'.
The peace returned somewhat. Everyone back to their seats. And then it happened: my wife was told, and she translated it on the spot: a PIT declaration can result in checks being carried out on previous years going back 10 years. It has no point or use to appear in the TRD systems. Don't do it, was their urgent advice. So here too: filing a declaration can have unpleasant consequences if TRD decides to check the entire trajectory of years of residence. In other words: familiarity breeds contempt.
Two weeks ago to TRD Chotana Road: same story. No report possible. When I asked if being known to TRD could be necessary in the future to be able to apply for an extension of stay at Immigration, they looked at me strangely and surprised. Nothing known. Never heard of it.
Jeroen, it's all about what you want to believe! They can go back ten years? Yes, but also if you don't file a tax return! They scared you, but why? Are you too difficult for them? Is the math too much for them? The tax authorities in C-Mai province are known to prefer to send farang away.
Do you have any proof now that you were there?
I don't know if you read this blog with attention but the 'success stories' that are here are really not out of the well-known big thumb. There are indeed NL-ers and BE-ers who file their tax return and pay income tax, or not, that is not even the point.
You can't expect me to advise someone to commit fraud. The big national and international tax advisors in Thailand all advise to file a tax return if you meet the conditions: at least 120.000 thb per year from abroad. Whatever those civil servants from Hang Dong claim...