Your opinion on integrating into Thai society
A few days ago khun Rick wrote another nice story called 'Integration of the Farang, Thai naturalization'. I find the subject of 'integration' very fascinating and wanted to share my opinion and experience about it. On second thought I find it more fun to ask the opinion and experiences of the esteemed thailandblog readers.
This seemed to me the best definition of 'integrate': 'to develop yourself in such a way that you fit into another group, especially in a society of which you were not or insufficiently part'.
I invite readers to answer the following questions.
1. How important do you think it is to integrate into Thai society? Rate it from 1 (not important) to 5 (very important).
2. Briefly describe for which elements in life you find integration important.
3. What do you think are the most important ways to integrate? Which ones have you applied yourself and how did it go?
4. To what extent are you integrated? Please indicate this on a scale of 1 (almost not) to 5 (almost completely).
5. What are the obstacles you experienced during the integration?
Perhaps you would like to add something to the above?
Thank you for your answers.
About this blogger
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Born in 1944 in Delfzijl as the son of a simple shopkeeper. Studied in Groningen and Curacao. Worked as a doctor in Tanzania for three years, then as a general practitioner in Vlaardingen. A few years before my retirement I married a Thai lady, we had a son who speaks three languages well.
Lived in Thailand for almost 20 years, first in Chiang Kham (Phayao province) then in Chiang Mai where I liked to bother all kinds of Thai with all kinds of questions. Followed Thai extracurricular education after which a diploma of primary school and three years of secondary school. Did a lot of volunteer work. Interested in the Thai language, history and culture. Have been living in the Netherlands for 5 years now together with my son and often with his Thai girlfriend.
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I am pleased to read that my integration article has inspired you to do this interesting survey. As a tourist who 'only' hangs around in Thailand 2-3 times a year for a week or two, it is a bit difficult for me to speak of integration level.
But I will try, taking the above into account.
1. Important: Level 3-4.
A lot also depends on the life partner; to what extent is he or she still integrated after 25 years in the Netherlands?
2. Language plays a big role. I just greeted my best male acquaintance here. The connection is there, but it hangs in the air. How are you? Good! And you? Good!. Silence….and see you later.
3. The sports club. A former colleague cycles with a group of Thais and a few pensioner farangs. That connects, even outside the cycling trips. The same for someone else in the badminton club.
I myself am 'unfortunately' working out a bit on my own terrace. Integration blocker.
4. See point 3. So 1 or not far above, but certainly not 2.
5. The language remains and the fact that my 'life' takes place in the Netherlands. Those 2-3 months here I am more of a tourist, although I also walk around the local lake, but literally never do I make contact or does anyone speak to me.
If I ever get to be here 'permanently' I'll have to put my shoulder to the wheel, otherwise integration will remain a phantom. Growing from life 1 to 2 and maybe only 3... I think it will stop there...
To integrate means to become one.
That unity is Thailand and YOU must be able and willing to enter into it. And just as people from abroad must integrate into society in the Netherlands, and not every guest does that, you must do your best to enter THEIR unity in Thailand.
Requirement 1 on Tino's list should be LANGUAGE. Speaking, understanding, reading and writing the language fluently.
As long as you don't meet that, you will never fully integrate. Yes, you can babble nicely, write your name, shout something at the post office, you can eat with Laab and know how to warn when you see a cobra, but that is not fully integrating. You can then say 'that you are doing quite well' and we are damn proud of that too...
I have 30 years of Thailand behind me and yes, I have also managed quite well. But full integration is only for the few who feel like going through that process. And I did not feel like it…
Very interesting subject, so I'll try to contribute my bit.
I give question 1 a 4 to 5. Especially if you want to live in the country differently than a tourist (with family or even as a loner).
Question 2 – The importance of ‘participating’ in daily life and being accepted by the majority of the population cannot be underestimated. Good daily contacts are therefore a must for pleasant coexistence and for your safety.
Question 3 – the most important things to be accepted are politeness, respect and mixing with people instead of retreating into a shell. I regularly visit the village shop/pub and restaurant and try to chat with the locals, they are also welcome in our home and simple daily greetings in their language really does wonders. A short chat at the markets, even if it is only in broken Thai, also helps wonderfully.
Well, not throwing all your own rules overboard and calmly and politely explaining what you think and do is also very much appreciated. Screaming and ranting will get you in the completely opposite direction and making a fist in the pocket is more appropriate.
Leading a withdrawn life in one's own cocoon is not the way to live together smoothly and pleasantly, although unfortunately we still see this too often.
Question 4 – is a difficult one and therefore a personal feeling. I give it a 3.
Question 5 – not being proficient enough in the language is the biggest obstacle. Without communication, no smooth integration. Adapting to the culture and customs, both rural and urban, is a fairly big obstacle at first, but you can quickly overcome it by showing respect and acceptance.
For a few years now I have been living in Thailand for about 6 to 9 months and the rest in Belgium. I am doing fine with that now.
I'm also curious about what others think about it, you're never too old to learn (more).
I can answer all questions with a 1.
I do not integrate and I do not plan to do so.
I am Dutch and will remain Dutch.
What I do is adapt and respect Thai norms, values and customs.
But I also expect some understanding for my standards, values and customs. Within my family and circle of acquaintances that is not a problem but outside of that you sometimes get strange looks. For example, I do not eat cold rice with something on the side and if something has been waiting in a container for half a day I do not want that either. My wife and daughter know that and it is not a problem either. If I find something too expensive I just say so, I do not beat around the bush.
On the other hand, when we are in a temple I do adapt and try to act as if I have respect for the things that happen there. In the small poor villages I do have real respect for what is done there with little resources, but when we are in a big temple, which is bursting with money, they did not expect a donation from me.
Admirable this initiative of Tino Kuis, known for his many postings concerning Thailand's people and society. Because is integration possible in Thailand? Does Thailand allow integration? And does one actually want to integrate? On Thailandblog there is quite a lot of mention of a different kind of experience, as formulated exceptionally by a reader in a reaction:
(quote)
“Willy says on November 3, 2024 at 10:33 am
Let that be the reason why I am glad that I do not speak Thai. If I am to believe my wife, then the only conversation among them is about food, temple visits and related subjects. On top of that, there are many conversations in which there is gossip about others in society with the underlying thought of jealousy and envy.
I have to admit that I sometimes miss a serious conversation. I have no contact with other Farang. The only conversation partner is my wife and the conversations are in broken English. But well, I fear that a good conversation with a Farang is also a rarity in our egoistic society. Hopefully I won't start talking to myself in the foreseeable future." (end)
https://www.thailandblog.nl/column/column-liefde-in-thailand-is-een-sprookje-met-een-handleiding/#comments
A number of things stand out in this that can be stated more broadly and generally, namely that:
1- the language is not spoken. (Older) pensioners often indicate that they find learning the language difficult. But apparently there is no need to do so. In addition, the response of Thai people to Thai-speaking 'farang' is dubious: they find it funny, but do not experience it as encouragement to actively engage in conversation. The Thai government does not attach an obligation to being able to speak Thai when granting a residence permit. In fact, it is not possible, because by definition permission to reside is only granted for one year, after which an extension of another year can be requested based on financial conditions. Not having to/wanting/being able to speak Thai voluntarily hinders one's own integration.
2- there is no contact with other fellow emigrants. In fact, people avoid this kind of contact. Attempts to form contact groups or an interest group prove untenable. This is due to age, sometimes distance, the difference in background, interests and lack of conversation topics. But the fact is that there is no encouragement or initiative among themselves to help each other integrate.
3- consciously only being together with a Thai partner is chosen, even if communication is limited and one has to be content with talking about daily worries. Apparently being left to oneself is the only alternative with withdrawal as a result.
And then there is a 4th component, namely that there is no tendency to see from the Thai government to see foreigners, who settle in their country with visa approval, as new citizens. On the contrary. As a non-immigrant you are only a temporary resident. If the visa conditions cannot be met by extending the permitted stay, suspension follows. A temporary financial deficit in the case of 'retirement', divorce or death in the case of 'Thai marriage', the end of an employment contract in the case of 'business': a change of circumstances means the end of the visa. It is up to the foreigner to wallow in the search for other possibilities and options. Fortunately, we have Ronny.
In short: it is so obvious that integration is not necessary on the part of the government, that there are no incentives to master the Thai language, that no initiatives need to be taken for joint support, and that living in one's own bubble is a normal thing.
Therefore: in answer to all questions, it is true that due to the lack of cooperation in the field of integration between Thai government and society with the foreigner, there is no interest whatsoever. If you are retired here, enjoy your "old" age, be good to yourself and your loved ones, do not forget the other, and have a good life, because that is what you have worked for your whole life. See how you can spend the day, seize that day, stay away from Thai interference, and do not try to fathom Thai mentalities and attitudes. And if you think you can, then read this first: https://pala.be/nl/artikel/van-thaise-glimlach-tot-grimlach
And of course: there is always a Petervz who, as a former embassy employee, can join ministerial circles. But that is not integration. And there is always a Jan or Piet who helps his in-laws on the land in the Isan. But that is also an exception? But how many do not leave Thailand for a few months every year because full Thai regulations are inadequate in many areas, how many do not ride around on a bicycle or motorbike to give the day a face? And how many do not view the Thai situations from a Dutch home base? There are many!
Hi Loeng the choice between who would come closest to my opinion was between you and William who is a thousandth of a second lower with his story.
Greatly expressed by several others, gentlemen, that integrating here in Thailand is like standing next to Max Verstappen in your Fiat 600.
Of course you can do your best, after all you are a resident of this country or a long-term visitor, a winter resident, 555.
Go with the flow and if you happen to have a talent for languages, try to learn their language.
You just hope they don't switch to the local dialect when you're not that important.
I am no longer here as part of a policy of tolerance that some political members in the Netherlands would be very happy with, there.
The fact that I myself chose this as a 'financial refugee' [many, very many] is of course also a fact that most people would like to forget.
That does not alter the fact that many have found their piece of happiness here.
After living in Thailand for more than 25 years I can agree 100% with what Loen describes here, but everyone will experience it differently.
Thank you.
For point 1 I think a 3, you just have to be very honest, you will never become a Thai and I think that is also good, I just don't speak Thai well enough to have deep conversations and even if I could I don't think that the topics of conversation with a common interest occur very often, with that I have also given an answer to 2, fortunately my wife lived in the Netherlands for 17 years and she speaks Dutch quite well, she has also started to think partly Dutch.
Point 3, I work out at home just like Rick and go swimming during the day in the Mall where I actually only have contact with Farang.
Point 4 I give a 3, in my village everyone knows me because I have been there for more than 30 years, I had 2 really good Thai friends, one of whom unfortunately passed away too early and one of whom moved 1 km away.
Point 5 is the language and difference in interests, conclusion Dutch people are always talking about foreigners who do not integrate, but we are actually no better.
1. If you are going to live permanently in a country, I think that integrating as well as possible in that country is essential. How well integration is possible depends on several factors. Someone who is going to live in another country after retirement will have much more difficulty integrating than someone of a young age, with all the gradations in between. I give it a 4.
2. I don't understand this question. The degree of Integration relates to all elements.
3. Good command of the language and customs. When I came to Thailand 44 years ago I immediately started learning the language. At that time I was still working in an offshore related function in the south of the country (from Pranburi to Songkhla) and at that time hardly anyone spoke a word of English there.
When the children went to school, I learned to read the Thai language well by helping them with their homework every day.
4.Nowadays in my daily life I speak about 70% Thai, 20% English and 10% Dutch. Apart from 2 Dutch people all my friends in Thailand are Thai. My family is Thai, my children have good positions in the business world in Thailand. I give myself a 4, because as a “farang” I always come across a little differently to Thais who don’t know me than a Thai.
5. I have not encountered any real obstacles, but it is clear that integrating into Thai society for a Dutch person is somewhat slower than, for example, in a neighbouring country such as Belgium.
Want to start by asking whether Thais want foreigners to integrate?
The professional bans. Jobs for Thai only. Reading in the press about job stealing by foreigners.
The jungle of Visa. Nothing permanent, all temporary. And don't forget, extension always ..'up to the immigration officer'…
Want to participate in local politics?
With input from professional expertise in areas such as environmental issues?
No way. (This is the way we do it)
Foreigners are excluded from participating in Obor Tor and Tessa Baan.
Witnessed how a beautiful kindergarten was ruined by Thai envy and jealousy.
Foreigner with a degree in social work, Thai wife, Thai diplomas in social skills regarding children, built it up to something fantastic. Foreigner had financed it, Thai wife was officially the boss.
In the morning, expensive cars came to bring the children.
There was even a child who wouldn't talk. After a few months they got it talking.
Thai envy + money(!) and massage officials made corrupt Thai authorities 'discover' gaps in the permits.
Had to close.
The envious and jealous Thai wanted to take over the kindergarten for a small price. What a plot.
The couple stood out with sales. They were completely done with it.
The Thais who took over had no clue about the business. Six months later, the expensive cars were no longer dropping off/picking up children.
End of kindergarten.
A Thai can start a pool cleaning/plumber business without any knowledge.
A foreigner starts paying all kinds of discouragement 'professional' fees, and is required to employ a certain number of Thai workers.
Integrate privately? Practically impossible. It all remains on the surface. Thai is not interested in 'thinking outside the Thai door'. Thinking?
I don't condemn it, but the insularity in Thai thinking and upbringing is a blocking factor.
And the Thais are fine with it.
Do foreigners feel participation as threatening?
An inferiority complex is often concealed.
So to prevent that,..keep them outside the permanent doors.
I have lived/worked in a number of foreign countries in management positions.
In countries where there is no emotional resistance to the foreigner.
Integration happened naturally!
Where the foreigner is not seen as a job-stealing threat.
In Thailand, integrating is a play. A trick of fooling yourself.
Note: I want to leave the wedding event out of this discussion.
Exactly William, I completely agree with you. Especially with your last sentence about the marriage event. On this point it also appears that Thai society is not intended to integrate. On this point Thai women have managed to “integrate” their farang. Integrate in the sense of “packing”. And why do those farang let themselves be packed? Because Thai women are more pliable, younger and have no resistance to a much older partner, but they do have a price tag attached to it. There is even a separate “category” visa for it: Thai marriage. If you have 40K baht per month or 400K baht in the bank, you can join your Thai wife. Is the intention to integrate? No, certainly not. But that an extra Thai family is financially supported and is no longer a burden on Thai society.
Although I have been learning Thai for a few months now, I do not really want to integrate. I am not a Buddhist, and although I value the Buddhist way of thinking, it will not be part of my life.
That I don't integrate is not Thailand's fault; it's my fault. Wherever I lived, I never tried. I'm friendly, and that's enough for me.
I live a good life with my wife, and that's enough for me.
life in Thailand is beautiful, good temperature, mostly friendly people and cheap to live by our standards. Respect others, mind your own business and stay out of the sight of the authorities and that's it.
As an additional point, I would like to add something about the integration of foreigners that Thais do not want.
This concerns Condo/apartment and home ownership.
What is the real reason behind the rule/law that in a condo/apartment complex only 49% free ownership is allowed?
If you come as the “50th percentile”, you may only lease.
What is the real reason that you can own a house but the land underneath and around it is only a lease or can be put in the name of your company?
A lawyer will arrange the establishment of a company for you (which you do nothing with) and with the right handshake at Landoffice everything is done. I was offered it, but refused, because I already had a Retirement visa! Oh,.. according to the broker and lawyer that was no problem at all. Yes-yes.
I did not go along with this Thai way of thinking and doing.
Among Thais, land issues are often criminal.
Think of Phuket Big Buddha where land was illegally added to the project.
It indirectly caused a deadly land slide recently.
With 13 deaths as a result, poor Thai and Burmese,, not important, so it became quiet.
On to the Thai agenda.
Big Buddha still closed to visitors until it is forgotten.
It will open again when High Season starts.
Too many protests from Van and Tuk tuk drivers who miss rides due to the Big Buddha and lose a lot of money.
Think of that forest land clearing in the north where illegal villas were built for (retired?) judges.
Think of the occasional (jealous?) influential wistle blowers causing completed illegally built projects to be demolished, which often does not happen.
Fine with 'mediation' end of story. It is built, it is there, it is beautiful, tearing it down would be a shame
So, what is the Thai negative fascination with small non-business Freehold and residential small land holdings of the foreigner?
Afraid that the foreigner will ever really integrate?
Integrating into a Thai family is already difficult, there is always some kind of barrier.
Integrate into Thailand? Thailand doesn't want it.
Sjaak S and Marcel put it briefly and succinctly.
My Thai wife had to go to great lengths in her NL integration process, as a NL newcomer, which was concluded beautifully by many in front of Ivo Opstelten, then mayor of Rotterdam, in a beautiful closing ceremony. I had to think of that when I read the responses to this topic again this morning. And I wondered: what effort do we have to make in TH as 'newcomers'? Are we really considered 'newcomers'? Or are we merely 'farang', or as in legislation and formal government called 'alien'? What is asked of us? Really nothing more than adaptation.
Integration means citizenship. Integration is more than adapting. Adapting is that you relate decently to the norms and values of the other. And most of us do that anyway. But integrating means that you become part of the whole. However, there is no desire, need or sense of necessity from the Thai government that foreigners/farang/aliens integrate into Thai society. As mentioned: if a Thai citizen comes to the Netherlands, then the Netherlands expresses the desire for integration, and the need for a language and citizenship course is indicated.
The Thai government does not invite anyone to integrate. To adapt, yes. There are all kinds of laws and regulations for that, and if you don't, you will be thrown out. But the question was about integration, (although I don't really understand what Tino Kuis' motive is/was to ask about this. Perhaps, when all the reactions have been done, he can give a review/evaluation/reflect on the results of his question.)
If you emigrate to another country (EU/UK/US/AUS), there is a mutual need to work together to achieve good citizenship. Thailand does not want foreigners as citizens. A country that allows you to immigrate has procedures that demonstrate a joint responsibility to achieve good citizenship. But Thailand does not have such procedures. There are conditions that are not (any longer) feasible for most of us, in terms of language proficiency, financial resources, age and professionalism, (Thai Nationality Act article 10). What remains is to request permission annually to reside/stay/live for those 365 days (TM7), to report every move (TM30) and to provide your address every 90 days (TM47). Note: after a re-entry (TM8) even in person again. This control over your residence has everything to do with the fact that the Thai government wants to know where you are, and has nothing to do with granting you freedom or support in becoming a decent Thai citizen. On the contrary. The alien must comply with guidelines and (financial) regulations.
I live well in this country: I love my Thai wife, she loves me, we speak Dutch/English with -, and take good care of each other, we live nicely and far away from her (English-speaking and highly educated according to Thai conditions) family, we don't feel like dealing with family intrigues of half-sisters and -brothers, our (step)children are named in our wills, we are doing very well (from my income), our savings are for her later, we have made good agreements, we can do our shopping wherever we want, we make several trips every year and go abroad/to the Netherlands several times a year for a weekend/week/longer, we leave all political and criminal fuss where it happens, we have no conflicts or arguments with anyone, and we behave properly towards others and our environment as all Thais should. What more do we want?
Of course, it should be Loieng Loeng.
Loeng, beautifully worded. Taken from the heart!
I liked exactly those two, you too William. I have been living in Thailand for 14 years now, I know the whims of the Thais all too well now, I will only think about integrating IF! If I am allowed to own my own piece of land where I can and may build MY own house, AND therefore ALSO! I am eligible for my own Thai passport! AND, of course, all that without having to pass on millions of Baht under the table! YES, only then will I think about integrating and also learning the Thai language. I am aware that that will not happen here in this beautiful Thailand, unfortunately, until then my hand remains firmly on the purse, my purse!