Dear readers,
Let me introduce myself, I am 68 years young and have been living in Pattaya with my girlfriend for 6 years. My income consists of half AOW from the SVB and the other half pension from ABP, built up during my working life at the Open University in Heerlen.
Yesterday to the tax office in Jomtien. The amount I transferred from ING bank to Kasikornbank in 2024 was 800.000 baht (rounded). After all deductions and tax-free allowance of 150.000 baht, a taxable amount of 300.000 baht (rounded) remained. This resulted in 22.500 baht tax to be paid for 2024.
I showed them my 2 annual statements from SVB and ABP and mentioned that this ABP pension was built up as a civil servant. The tax withheld in the Netherlands on these 2 sources of income amounts to the equivalent of 67.000 baht. The tax exemption would only be granted if the 2 annual statements were provided with a stamp from the Dutch embassy and the annual statements had to be translated.
Yesterday evening I wrote an email to the embassy in Bangkok and asked for an appointment at the consular consultation hour on May 7 here in Pattaya. I explained the problem and requested that the 2 annual statements be stamped during this consultation hour. This morning I received the following answer: “Unfortunately, the Dutch embassy cannot legalize annual statements or other Dutch documents. Legalization of Dutch documents can only be done in the Netherlands. For documents from the tax authorities, this goes via the Ministry of Finance, then the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and then the Thai embassy in The Hague.”
Now my question, what now because the annual statements are not accepted and traveling to the Netherlands to visit the ministries and the Thai embassy is not an option. How do other Dutch people solve this problem because I think I am not the only one who runs into this?
Thank you in advance to anyone who would like to think along with me or has a solution for this.
Regards,
Gerard
Editors: Do you have a question for the readers of Thailandblog? Use it contact form..
So it turns out they just make it so difficult that you drop it,
Once in Thailand, you don't just go back to the Netherlands for a stamp, if you get one.
and then the route for a stamp …………………….
Ministry of Finance, then the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and then the Thai embassy in The Hague.”
In short, you will never succeed.
Indeed, why all the bullying by both countries regarding taxation?
The Dutch Tax Authorities: Registered letters are not answered,
you call; one official says one thing, another contradicts him and the third hangs up
just the connection. Then you ask: can you email me or call me back… no, that is not possible.
Then the Thai tax officer calls me and starts with: I don't have the budget to help you long term
to call. Then…you have to pay taxes in Thailand…over and over again when I ask my questions.
Then the stories about Jomtien (if I may believe these…) money for the man, and cents for Thailand.
In short; not really inviting.
I'm in between, I recorded everything and created a file.
Why can't the tax authorities come to an agreement among themselves and
the taxpayer a ready-made solution with clear rules.
The last I heard (via the Dutch government website) the Thai government
has not signed yet they want to renegotiate.
I also think that the Dutch Embassy can play a more active role in this headache file,
think of it as consular assistance happening in a group.
I am considering contacting the Ombudsman because of reprehensible conduct by the Dutch state.
Dear ge, according to Jongbloed Fiscaal Juristen a new treaty is ready at the official level, and the aim is to sign it in 2025. Please show which website of the Dutch government states that TH wants to renegotiate. That has a huge impact on us pensioners, because the expectation is that 2025 will be the last tax year for TH. From next year the misery with the Thai tax should be over. So make it known where you read that there is no signing yet.
Dear Gerard,
You are taxed on your transferred amounts to your Thai account.
Then your annual statement no longer matters, right?
I was given 2 options here in HuaHin:
1. be taxed on my pension income minus the tax already paid in Belgium, whereby the official immediately said “most complicated”, and this for the reasons you mentioned.
2.being taxed on transfers made to my THAI account where only a bank statement and proof of residence were required.
Since I only transferred 300000 THB in 2024, my choice was quickly made (option 2)
Received proof of declaration, nil to be paid.
Of course I don't know if it is that simple everywhere.
Good luck,
Ron
Hi Ron, option 1: then only about the part that you transferred to Thailand.
Option 1 is not allowed at all. That means taxing 'world income'. That system has not (yet) been introduced in Thailand. The official thinks he can cancel one thing out with the other, but then needs proof of BE incomes. That is why he says: "most complicated".
TH may only option 1. Just study what TH means by “income”. Only that part of your BE or NL income, that you transfer to TH. Lung Addie therefore calls “income tax” to “remittance tax”, but that is in fact incorrect. It is not a tax on your transfers, but on that part of your income that you have transferred and is subject to PIT. Because if you transfer B1M, and of that B400K is savings from 2023, only B600K is taxable for the PIT.
Gerard, what is it with the Dutch who prefer to do things the hard way abroad? Even in those situations where the easy way is possible? Because what do you think would be the best thing to do if you were told by the TRD that you have to pay ฿22,5K, because you do not have the evidence to prove that you are exempt from Thai tax? You yourself say that flying to the Netherlands to prepare some annual statements according to Thai wishes is not an option? How do you want to realize your tax return to a Thai despite this, other than by simply offering it 'for convenience'? Because what is it about? Surely not more than €600, thanks to a higher ฿ vs € last year. What you evoke with your question is confirmation of your frustration, because in starting a complaint, the Netherlands can be called great.
Take your Kasikorn bank statement of ฿800K to a TRD office. Prove that amount with your ING transfers. And done Gerard. Leave those annual statements at home, man! No fuss about SVB/ABP/PENSION and WITHHOLDINGTAX, or DTA/ART19GOVERMENTALFUNCTIONS/ETC.
Do you think those TRD ladies and gentlemen are up for that? A 'farang' comes to the counter to report having paid ฿67K in NL, who therefore (!) does not want to pay ฿22,5K in TH, arguing with two pieces of paper that are illegible and incomprehensible (excusez le mot) for Thai. Mind you: not even provided with a signature, and lo and behold: no stamps! Damn it, right? Official formal state documents and not even stamps? Wait a minute!
As an unmarried person and including the 'free foot' you indeed end up with a 'net income' of ฿300K, with a tax to be paid of ฿22,5K. With the AOW reduction even less. It can easily make a difference of more than a third. But whether your 'Open University' pension extends to that, ask Erik Kuipers.
You conveniently forget that there is a tax treaty to prevent double taxation.
If you have an income of an AOW you don't have to worry but there are also people with a higher income than a pitiful AOW who then have to pay 10000 euros or more??? Never in my life, there is a tax treaty
In the case of “then just pay 10000 euros or more” we are talking about >฿375.000 TH tax to be paid. Such a sum requires a bit more preparation than just walking into the TRD with a few annual statements. After all, we are talking about bank transfers of a size of up to ฿2,5M. Assume the average 2024-฿ rate at 37,5, then we are talking about >€65K. The lower the ฿ (as in recent weeks), the higher the number of € to be contributed. Hire a consultancy firm, make agreements with the TRD and if necessary NL vv: that will definitely pay off. Precisely because of the tax treaty.
If you mean “paying 1000 euros” (a contribution of around ฿1M), then getting angry won’t pay off, an extra ticket won’t, but a pragmatic attitude will.
It is all well-intentioned, dear Jozef, and I am largely responsible for your contribution, but if you say that Gerard has not used his AOW reduction, and he would still do so, then he also needs his SVB annual statement, doesn't he? Lead for scrap iron, so to speak.
In the meantime, Erik Kuipers has explained that Gerard's entire AOW can be left out of his tax return because of 19/1.
Henk! No, wait a minute! You didn't read that properly. I told Gerard that his purely civil service pension should be left out of the tax return. The AOW is indeed taxable, although the levy can be reduced to zero. That's something completely different!
Taxable income and paying taxes are completely different things is what I was taught in the courses. Drilled in just like the German lists mit, nach, nebst,… damn, I still know them by heart… For sixty years! I hope to stay out of the hands of Herr Doktor Alois Alzheimer…
But what was feared has come true; the Thai tax officials are far from all aware of treaties and are just messing around… The embassy won’t be happy about it either; last week alone I had several e-mails from Dutch people in TH who were sent to the embassy for a stamp on their annual statement….
Gerard, sorry for the typo, pension 19/1 is EXCLUSIVELY allocated to NL.
Gerard and others, pure civil service pension as referred to in article 19/1 of the treaty is EXCLUSIVELY assigned to NL for levy. In principle, you leave that outside the TH declaration.
But there is also article 23/4 and 23/5 in which TH has actually received a claim on ALL incomes from NL unless explicitly excluded. But see 23/5: TH states that income is FREE of levy and art 19 is included. Then all that remains is that this counts for the progression reservation.
This also plays a role in my advice on taxing the sales profit on real estate, such as your home, in the Netherlands. See https://www.thailandblog.nl/expats-en-pensionado/belasting-thailand/belasting-2024-belast-thailand-de-verkoop-van-mijn-huis-in-nederland/
Approach it this way and only get a higher rate on the other income. And let that other income now only be the AOW, in this case, where you get a reduction according to 23/6! The reduction is then 100 of 100 so you pay zero that year.
The problem may be that the civil servant asks you to prove that your pension falls under 19/1. This is not apparent from the ABP annual statement. One of the readers wrote, a few weeks ago, that he would submit this to the ABP. Unfortunately, I have not yet seen an answer to this here. Perhaps someone has an idea of how to deal with this? How do you prove that you were a civil servant?
On my ABP there is the option to make a printout of the entire working period with all employers, which shows your working status as a civil servant.
Jacques, thank you. Is that also available in English?
But what remains is, if that civil servant in TH wants to obstruct, that you will incur costs for legalization in NL. Also applies to the AOW declaration.
You have noticed that very well. I was allowed to see the civil servant in Jomtien and the corruption is dripping from his face. Now also to have annual statements legalized. Crazy. For immigration we still have the cooperation of the Austrian consul as far as income is concerned. But this civil servant has only been appointed to bring in as much money as possible. He barely speaks English and conversing about the double tax agreement is something he is not charmed by. I have not tried whether such a printout can also be done in English. I do not know whether that option is available. Whether the good man can read English remains to be seen. I could go on like this for a while but the fear that the new anti-double tax agreement will not be signed does not give me a pleasant feeling for the future.
Dear Jacques, see also my question to @ge of 12:58, do you know more about a possible delay in signing. Jongbloed Fiscaal Juristen reports that a signing will take place this year. @ge reports that he read on a website of the Dutch government that TH wants new negotiations. The negotiations to reach a new tax treaty were started in 2020 at the initiative of Thailand because of the desire to modernize the treaty. The Netherlands agreed because of the desire to be able to effect source state taxation for pensions and to bring the treaty into line with the OECD anti-abuse standards against tax avoidance. Thailand therefore has a lot to lose from a new treaty, but initiated it itself and agreed to the objectives. Let me know if you know more.
I don't know more than you know. But I don't trust the Thai government agencies when it comes to foreigners' money. Especially considering the way we are treated at the tax offices. Different everywhere but usually incapable of acting and totally unprepared to treat all those foreigners in a correct manner.
Jacques, you have the option to consult another tax office. Sattahip has already been mentioned in this blog.
I had already intended to do this but I can't find this tax office with Google. There is a building of the municipality but I have no idea if John had visited this building for his tax return. I also saw no response from John to the question of someone else who also wanted to know the address.
In Sattahip before the big bend to the left, turn right before sorting at the traffic lights and turn right to the sea. Then after about 400 meters to the left. The road runs a bit parallel to the sea. The office is on the site where other government services are. The building that you see at the front, you have to enter at the back (in the middle). And then you walk straight into the 2 small tax counters.
Jacques,
If you search on Google Maps with the term กรมสรรพากรสัตหีบ (tax service Sattahip)
you will find this: สำนักงานสรรพากรพื้นที่สาขาสัตหีบ (office taxes branch area Sattahip) in อาคารที่ว่าการอำเภอสัตหีบ (Sattahip district office building).
Another thing. I think we will all be helped out of the fire by the Dutch embassy in Bangkok when they, like the Austrian consul in Pattaya, draw up a similar support letter and then mention instead of a visa support letter that this is a tax support letter. Whereby the confirmation is in accordance with that of the Austrian consul. Neat with the embassy stamps on it and in English. That is what is requested by the Thai tax authorities and that must be one of the possibilities to assist us. Where there is a will there is a way.
I was also in Sattahip and got the same answer as in Jomtien, stamps from the embassy or consulate on the annual statements.
Gerard, you should leave your annual statements at home! Thailand levies on the basis of what is brought in. The fact that they ask for a stamp means that they don't understand our treaty! Our treaty does not have a tax credit! Bring your bank book, that should suffice.
Jacques, that official in Jomtien, just spread some butter around his mouth and print out the treaty in Thai! Here it is:
https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/nation/netherland_t.pdf
or change the last part to belgium_t.pdf
If the TRD does not impose work instructions on its employees on site, or does not provide a manual or does not provide instructions for dealing with the tax returns of farangs, which the TRD itself came up with (Sept/Nov 23, plus various appeals in the media spring 24), does not inform them about the existence of DTAs and/or the specific articles regarding extra exemps, allowances, reductions or whatever they call these kinds of discounts in TH, does not provide calculation models, or however and whatever: then we can shout and want until we are blue in the face on this blog: it is up to the Thais to grow up. It is the same with everything: they drop ideas without knowing what they are talking about. And then everyone has to figure it out for themselves. Everything goes well until it goes wrong. A mess!
Op https://www.jongbloed-fiscaaljuristen.nl/emigratie/belastingverdragen/waar_belasting_betalen/thailand/ It is possible to see exactly for each article which part belongs to which country according to the TH-NL treaty.
Rijck, if only that were true! And that apart from the fact that the Jongbloed site is a great tool in explaining the treaties between NL and other countries.
See in your link the taxability of the AOW and similar benefits from the security. The column 'Thailand' is empty there but Thailand does levy taxes on these types of benefits, see art 23 paragraph 6, and Thailand has 23 paragraph 5 for progression reservation.
Dear Erik, in your answer to Gerard regarding his AOW and ABP pension you state that because of 19/1 his ABP falls to NL, TH may then tax his AOW, but calculated the reduction will be 100%.
Now you yourself say that the relevant ABP in Gerard's case cannot be proven, but also in the entire "Chapter III. Taxation of income", in particular not in articles (18)19 and 23, a reference to SVB, AOW and/or ABP (both versions of pension) is included.
I have a company pension with almost double the benefit than my AOW. If I now tell the civil servant that my pension concerns the AOW and the 23/6 reduction is in effect, how can that civil servant know that he has to ask for SVB papers? Not so. Not that I will do it because it would be fraud, and ultimately the TRD has a legal right to investigate up to 10 years back. Who says that in 2035 TH still won't have things in order? But in that sense @Jozef is right when he says that with a TRD civil servant any discussion ABP/SVB/AOW is pointless.
If what Jongbloem Juristen say is true that AOW falls under NL, am I then obliged to enter art. 23/6 in my TH declaration? Because as you say: if Gerard can leave his ABP out of his declaration, then that is also the case with the AOW? If I keep the AOW out of the declaration, then I do not need 23/6 either. I do not have the impression that a civil servant understands the calculation of 23/6, while many blog readers do not. Erik, what do you think?
Henk, it is about the nature of the income. Company pension is exclusively assigned to TH to tax. This also applies to civil service pension from a company of the NL government, such as a municipal transport company. See the contribution of Lammert de Haan in this blog: https://www.thailandblog.nl/expats-en-pensionado/waar-laat-jij-je-abp-pensioen-belasten/.
Pure civil service pension as referred to in 19/1 is exclusively allocated to NL; Thailand may not levy as income. However, TH may, where applicable, include that income to determine the rate if 23 paragraph 5 applies.
I know that many civil servants do not understand this, but there are those who do understand the treaties. I heard from Lammert that his appendices for the reduction of the AOW levy, art. 23 paragraph 6, were indeed accepted. But those were civil servants at the regional (supra-provincial) offices of the Thai service.
Jongbloed says that AOW and WIA fall under NL. Correct. But that also falls under TH according to art. 23 paragraph 6. Our treaty does not contain a residual article and no article about social security, but 23/6 does indeed cover the taxability of benefits from security. At least that is what Lammert thought about it, and I think too. After all, 23/6 states 'and all other income not mentioned in this treaty.'
It's a mess at the services in TH. I heard of a civil servant who called the AOW a benefit 'like the SSO in TH' and exempted the benefit. A civil servant somewhere in Isaan said 'You'll have to get that reduction in NL'. Many civil servants want a stamp from the embassy for the 'tax' withheld in NL because of the tax credit that does not exist in our treaty. Rijck also wrote about it. In Chiang Mai they don't want to tax foreign pensions of farangs at all...
I understand that people are going crazy about it. I sometimes wonder how the big consulting firms do that for their international clients; perhaps they meet the civil servants who are extra trained, like the Dutch tax authorities have teams for big companies and international clients. Well, there is more and specialist knowledge there.
The NL emigrants come to the counter for the lighter declarations and there are not so specialized civil servants. And then you run into a wall of incomprehension with your neatly prepared declaration. Then you may hope that the civil servant calls 'the boss' to provide assistance but yes, calling the boss is of course a loss of face... So they just muddle along.
I can only advise you to stick to the treaty and the law. And now it's time for Twente-Feyenoord…