'The Thai is a nice person but with a backbone of a mussel'
It's been 5 years since I first visited Thailand. Got married there and built a house. Still often think of those carefree walks on Jomtien Beach and for someone who was born into Calvinist teachings, the shocking imagery of “Walking Street”.
There was a time when I loved Thailand. Saw with emotion the tolerant attitude inspired by Buddhist teachings and the affable but, for the Westerner, oh so charming “Wai”. Unfortunately, that image has slowly faded away and has been replaced by a critical approach to Thai society. I experience the “Wai” more and more as a hypocritical gesture and the famous Thai smile more as a grin.
I once read a Thai joke:
Why are American buses so safe?
Because one of them could be the future US president.
Why are Thai buses so rickety?
Because there is zero chance that you will find the future leader of Thailand in it. It is driven by Taksin's driver to his private school.
The moral of this joke is that Thailand faces an important challenge, but with a backbone of a mussel, it misses this challenge. Every economist agrees that Thailand has what it takes to become a formidable economic power. But then it needs to reform. Does it really have to do something about the deep-rooted corruption that you find from top to bottom and the pernicious morality of the “Mia Noi”. But the greatest reform will have to take place in order to eradicate the "patronage system", relatively one of the largest in the world and where the real power lies, root and branch
There are still many Thais who have to drink their own piss. The gap between rich and poor is, after that of South America, the largest in the world, the environment is diseased, the Thai "landscaping" is raped by ugly, unprofitable, palm and rubber plantations. The Thai, they build thousands of useless temples but develop a decent product, "whatever". The housing market, junk mortgages, land speculation are latent “air bubbles” of size that will one day burst. In short, there are major economic and social problems, but the Thai considers itself to be the center of the world with a monopoly on wisdom.
If you hear the Thai talk then there is a crisis of confidence that they are fed up with the lies and false information and the censorship, in short they don't trust the government at all. But what are they doing about it? Nothing. They accept without a fight that a "democratically" elected government is overthrown and watch with resignation that the current rulers become part of the patronage system to enrich themselves on the backs of the Thai. I regularly see Prayut as a “Fidel Castro” addressing the people, but what strikes me is that no Thai is watching or listening. The Thai do not understand or do not want to understand that if Thailand wants to become a constitutional state, the powerful patronage system must first be eradicated root and branch. Furthermore, they must teach their children to be critical and not, as is the case now, indoctrinate the children that criticism is a loss of face. As far as I'm concerned, they can abolish that submissive "Wai".
Now you carefully hear sounds that it must change, otherwise the “revolution”. Empty words because until now the demonstrations have never been against the patronage system, but against the abuse of power by those in power. Hierarchy is deeply rooted in Thai culture. I call it “cadaver discipline” in which unliberties and corruption are unquestioningly accepted. The current rulers are clamoring loudly for the corruption and internal problems to be overcome. How long will it take the Thai to realize that they will be part of it. I never think, the Thai ignores it.
Of course history will repeat itself. Today or tomorrow the (popular) anger will erupt again, and the “reds” and the “yellows” will once again face each other. How many deaths will there be? Useless bloodshed. Because the Thai looks at it and goes back to the order of the day. They don't want to learn from criticism.
Submitted by Ronald van Veen
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Perfectly said. In Thailand, the elite rule and that power is never given up.
One does not care about one's fellow man. Because one thinks, according to budda, that after death one gets back a good life. There is no market mechanism at all. They don't know innovation. Infrastructure never heard of it. Not safety anyway. The entire economy runs on foreign companies. As long as the elite are in power, nothing will ever change. The poor Thai takes everything from the government, from the elite. Each car is 90% financed. The previous government tried to do something for the poor. But then the elite saw that and they didn't tolerate that at all. They want to eliminate the red party completely, but they never succeed. Because there are too many poor people.
The poor citizen can no longer make ends meet. But that will be a problem for the elite. Just what the writer says. One turns around and goes on with the life of the day. Unfortunately, the chaos will always remain.
Well written Ronald, agree with you EXCEPT: the wai. I love not having to shake hands with the Thai. If you take a look at what a Thai (and actually other peoples, especially Chinese) do with their hands and hold and what they dredge with their fingers and then do not wash their hands (not even after a visit to the toilet), then I cannot understand the wai to last long enough…..
APPLAUSE! Finally an article that, rightly so, cracks critical nuts about Thailand! Because there are enough to crack.
My socialist side hopes that Thailand will close the gap between the outrageously rich and the terribly poor, otherwise it will remain a powder keg of unrest and corruption and all the misery that goes with it. That is an important task of politicians and I have my doubts about that “professional group”. Perhaps everyone is waiting for “the day that everyone knows will come, but (also here) may not be mentioned”. What happens next? That will be a very important moment in Thai politics. That will determine the direction Thailand will take in the coming decades. In my opinion, this will be a “make or break” moment for Thai society.
It's been a long time since I've read something this good, I totally agree
wow Ronald, a pretty intense story, I've been here for 5 months now, but my thoughts are already a bit the same, although some nuance is missing, but that's personal. It is now also clear to me that the Thai does not want changes, but we are not really much different in that in the Netherlands, people do not want this and that either, but people continue to accept everything in the Netherlands.
I hope you will find a way to have a "good" life and the Thai? Indeed it really doesn't change, at least not in “my lifetime”……
if one wants a job in the government or army one must first pay 500.000 baht to get this job. This is still true. I know someone studying to be a pilot. To be admitted, he must first pay 2 million bath at bangkok airways or thai airways. The poorest minister has 125 million bath. The richest 1125 million bath..Most of them are generals. this data provided the bangkok post 4 months ago. All corruption money. So if one first abolishes corruption at a high level, then one goes far. But unfortunately that will never happen.
I also fully agree with this, but to become a formidable economic power, a population is also needed with a solid education / education and not at kindergarten level as it is now. In most state schools, most are kept stupid and only the elite receive a good education in private schools. But whether the majority of expats here are clamoring for it…?
If the economy really booms, it will also become just as unaffordable for most of them to survive here as a Euro pensionado, such as in Singapore, Korea, etc..
It is bad to say, but the elite but also us expats benefit from a poverty-stricken part of the population.
Wonderful to read how a farang expresses his opinion about another country and culture. Crusaders and missionaries did that in the past. But those insights and opinions are now outdated. This clearly shows where one stands in the formation of opinions.
Personally I have learned and experienced that insights and opinions can change. My opinion and truth with which I traveled to Thailand 15 years ago were based on the norms and values I had grown up with. Over time I found out that my right was mainly based on those same norms and values.
Since it is a fact that I live in the Netherlands, but that my life also takes place in Thailand a few times a year. Has given me the opportunity to get my perspective properly balanced. At least in my perception.
The opinion about a culture change given here is, in reality, much, much more complicated.
Take, for example, changing a corporate culture. There have been companies in the Netherlands that have been working on this for decades. Sometimes with success, but never without a struggle. Needless to say, there are many casualties during this process. More recently, we can mention the corporate cultures of Banks here. The changes in corporate cultures can never be compared one to one.
What is good for the Netherlands is not necessarily good for Thailand. What is bad for Thailand is not necessarily bad for the Netherlands.
The Netherlands, for example, was always of the opinion that integration policy and multi-cultural policy were a blessing in disguise. The Netherlands was known for its hospitality and tolerance. The world now thinks very differently about this and the insights here in the Netherlands have also changed. The Netherlands could learn a lot from Thailand here. Here one can conclude that Thailand does indeed have a backbone (and the Netherlands that of a mussel.)
There are now population groups in the Netherlands that find it impossible to accept Dutch norms and values. They can't handle the freedoms we fought for. Now the situation is such that they do not want to integrate, but they do want to infiltrate. The cause of this skewed growth can be guessed.
In the Netherlands there is also a culture change going on, but where the balance lies is still far from clear.
Well written and very intense. Even that you have to watch out for here!
After 25 years of Thailand, I agree with you….
I have been coming to Thailand for 30 years, a beautiful country, but I agree with this.
the Thai people are just pretty stupid, and want to stay stupid.
I've looked at all those demonstrations with sorrow, even had to leave my house when the grenades exploded at the neighbors.. it helped... nothing.
Thai society is completely sick and will probably never get better.
The Thai are all fine to a certain extent, as long as they can live their own lives without REALLY thinking about their future.
Bangkok is one of my favorite cities in the world, but Bangkok is quite western, go look in the suburbs or in the countryside, Thailand is really a third world country and will remain so for centuries if the mentality does not change.
I think what is happening here in Thailand is happening all over the world.
Mumli fills decipi, give them bread and circuses, rule and divide and the corrupt elite will never cut their own flesh.
Then I think we're about done.
Grtz Swa
Thailand needs a person like back then…Hong Kong , Governor Murray Maclehose , from 1971 to 1983 , in the face of scandalous corrupt/ bribe police he put together an independent administration .. a beacon of purity and business dealings rarely seen in Asia, staffed with honest officials from Hong Kong and overseas. it was so independent and so ruthless that it came to a brief but very tense police mutiny in 1977 when thousands of angry officers gathered in the parade grounds of the police stations. Tea money had become a way of life, incorporated into the family budget. The explosive volcano of anger could be curbed by Murray Maclehose by granting extensive amnesty for shady past practices
The social reform programs formed the basis of later economic success in the
COMMAND – economy
After his retirement, Murray stated his opposition to any form of democratic elections at the time, “if the Communists had won, it would have meant the end of Hong Kong…!!
But this is Hong Kong, and can't be applied one-to-one here in Thailand, but still….
Ronald I completely agree with your article, many things are wonderfully appointed.!!
Attn your opening text: “The Thai is a nice person, but with a backbone of a mussel.
My opinion is, discipline, and this applies to almost everyone, but especially for a Thai, discipline is the basis of many things in this life, more important than knowledge or talent.
An athlete without discipline will never reach the top………………..
carl.
Do not agree with.
I think the writer has had an experience somewhere that provokes his resentment towards his host country.
I find the European, say Western capitalist society, rather a plague that makes the current generations wimps and wimps, embedded in what is called 'social protection'.
En, as corrupt as anywhere else, only better hidden by their own written rules.
Maybe time to consider a return for the writer?
(ps with all due respect for your opinion)
Clear and straightforward analysis. Too little on this blog. Perhaps those who always write so fondly about ""the real Thailand"" and that ""delightful land of smiles"" can take some perspective here.
Yes what can I say. Born into an entrepreneurial family in the Netherlands where the embalming service ruined every Christmas for my Father (must certainly have been stopped around that time. So we are now talking 55-60 years back. The Thai I see and live with in Isan do not pay taxes, yes of course on their purchases, petrol etc. but have never seen a tax return. Corruption is a system here. If you want to work for the government, a bank or a good job, you have to move. A friend of mine wife had to pay 200,000 baht because she wanted to work as a teacher closer to her parents.Same for if you want to have a public job.Education is very behind compared to the western world and the straw is still there.(heard this from my 4 years young daughter)
So why do I live in Thailand and chose it over the Netherlands (55 years in and out) Australia 5 years and the US 5 years (in and out) simple freedom and not forgetting the people. I don't speak Thai (a little) I hardly eat Thai food so what is the reason? Freedom and of course my family. Of course, as the only farang in the family, I first gave the family a good home, my mother-in-law found a good hospital when she was terminal, the rest of the family is now independent, good tools (which are half the work) they have from me . So in addition to rice cultivation, they now also build and renovate for others and no longer hold hands with anyone.. Now school holidays so we are going to explore the north.
Excellent article. For us Westerners, Thailand is a fantastic country, because we belong to the wealthy class and benefit from the benefits that it brings. Although not as much as a rich Thai, but more than enough to lead an existence at the top of society, where life is good in Thailand. Where ordinary Thais resist the system and no longer wish to behave so submissively, storms of protest erupt on this blog. Then it's not what it used to be. In the Netherlands, grabbers are reviled. They are revered in Thailand and indeed, most of us are not going to see this change fundamentally.
Surprisingly everyone agrees so much. For a large part I can also agree, but a little color in the story would have been possible.
Why do I say this, because when you sit down in front of it, and you put your story next to it, there is also such a story to write about the Netherlands and about many other countries as well.
In fact, if you live there, if you stay there often or go on holiday several times, then you know what country and what kind of country you are going to and you know what the culture, the people, the government, etc etc are like.
Of course everyone is allowed to express their opinion. (at least for us most of the time)
It seems to me important that in this kind of consideration one tries to measure one's own impressions and opinions against facts or data that can be found elsewhere.
The writer hypothesizes: “Every economist agrees that Thailand has what it takes to become a formidable economic power.” That is easy to say, but a really thorough economic analysis that substantiates this is unknown to me. Until now, low labor costs and a limited number of products (such as rice) have been Thailand's most important 'assets'. What are the ironclad strengths on which Thailand can distinguish itself in the increasingly competitive global economy?
The writer also assumes: “The gap between rich and poor is, after that of South America, the largest in the world”. However, if you consult the Gini-Index, this simply turns out to be incorrect. For example, the African countries show a much larger gap. And the Thai gap is comparable to that of Vietnam, Hong Kong (!) and China.
The writer also states: "The Thai, they build thousands of useless temples". I'm not religious myself, but what is that? A useless temple? Why useless? Perhaps those temples are of ultimate use to a believer. Who are we, non-believers, because to determine the Thai believers? Is the material economy the only god to worship?
The writer further states: "... in short, they (the Thai) don't trust the government at all." Is this a striking difference compared to other countries? Look at the development of the figures for the Netherlands, the USA, etc. What do we read about this elsewhere?: The 2015 Edelman Trust Barometer shows a global decline in trust over the last year, and the number of countries with trusted institutions has fallen to an all-time low among the informed public.” Which countries do score high in the index? The United Arab Emirates, China and the like. It's just who you want to belong to.
I could go on and on, but leave it at that. Without suggesting that the author erroneously points to a number of wounds, I would like to point out that a vast subject such as this needs to be looked at in a considerably more thorough way. Only on the basis of a sharp analysis, objective comparison and a realistic future scenario can one really assess the position of Thailand. It soon becomes otherwise: a repetition of arbitrary assumptions and even regrettable prejudices. Thailand is nowhere near there, but it deserves better than this. Not only out of respect, but also out of genuine involvement.
@ Jan van Velthoven
Normally it's not my thing to respond to comments on my own written columns. In this case an exception.
Thailand has an excellent geographical location, a well-educated workforce, decent infrastructure, an excellent international airport linked to a good network of airports, and modern ports. In short, Thailand has everything to become a significant economic power in SE Asia.
My comment about the "gap between rich and poor" is from CIA World Fact Book 2013.
Tons of (uncontrolled) money is being spent on temples that does not make any contribution to helping those Thais who still have to drink their own piss.
Despite good education and a high degree of literacy, the Thai is not able to make a decent product. At every exhibition (Bitec, Impact) you visit, if you shout “CHINA” there, the whole exhibition will collapse.
The factories run by the grace of the women. The men prefer to sit on a motorbike or be a taxi driver.
My column is not based on scientific assumption but on objective observations.
Ronald van Veen
We generally agree, Ronald, but I still think very differently about certain things: Thailand is not a formidable power and will not become one. Thailand is certainly a player in the region because of its size, but rather like the Netherlands, which is in Europe. Thailand certainly does not play a decisive role in Southeast Asia.
Well-trained staff? Certainly there are well-educated Thais. But I think the average Thai is currently poorly educated and the plans of politicians to achieve a better education level often end up in fine words or in tablets that lie rotting in a corner of the classroom, because the teachers cannot deal with them. .
Infrastructure/ airport/ ports? Not a unique feature. Can be easily adopted by other countries in the region (VIETMAN!)
Temples: I agree! Here at the village (about 30 houses, max. 150 inhabitants) a temple complex with a large hall where you can have U2 or Rolling Stones perform, supplemented with a residence complex for the monks that a luxury resort in Hua Hin still envies is becoming. And the next request from the orange gentlemen is already on our doorstep, because we need to expand. Real capital goes there and yields nothing.
The statement “Every economist agrees that Thailand has what it takes to become a formidable economic power.” should be viewed in the light of practice. According to WorldBank figures, GDP growth in Thailand measured over the past ten years has been consistently below the growth of the Southeast Asian region ( http://www.worldbank.org/en/country/thailand ). Thailand has a number of decent facilities, which incidentally become less distinctive each year compared to the stragglers in the region, falling behind the forerunners. Also in terms of infrastructure. The fiddling about the concessions of fast internet connections is a good example of the latter. In addition, all the negative observations of the writer (about the gap, the meager educational results, the poor work ethic of men in particular, etc.) are just so many limitations of the economic potential. Potency is not an abstract concept, but the result of realistic facts. And those social facts in particular cannot be changed in one generation. Conclusion: Thailand probably does not have what it takes to become a formidable economic power during the current generation. A few nice physical starting points are completely insufficient for this. Economists who do not take social reality into account in their forecasts will fail (but they usually earn a good living by revising those forecasts after a certain time….).
And this for the shorter term: “All the economic engines appear to have stopped functioning rendering Thailand's economic outlook the worst in 40 years, said Mr Thanawat Polvichai, director of the Economic and Business Forecast Center of the University of Thai Chamber of Commerce.
The contraction of economic growth, the shrinking of export and domestic consumption, farm price slump and delayed disbursement of government's spending budget have combined to make the private sector feel not confident with the state of the economy, he explained.” (Apr 17, 2015).
Anyone who thinks that the previous government was democratic has something in his eye.
The redshirts were and are used "democratically" to increase the glory and especially the power of a certain family club, analogous to the Suhartoclan in Indonesia and the Marcosclan in the Philippines.
Before that, even in the eyes of the redshirt leadership, a civil war or a break-up of Thailand was an option, given the threat of secession from the north and the establishment of combat groups.
Without Army intervention, however undemocratic, there would almost certainly have been a, what shall I call, democratic war in Thailand.
An intervention that is, by the way, enshrined in law.
Naturally, every effort is made to maintain the existing balance of power.
Nothing is foreign to Thailand.
I find it very distasteful that the incredibly undemocratic EU and the hopelessly undemocratic US believe that the "democratic" government of the Thaksin family is better for Thailand.
The EU, which continues to develop ever more undemocracy against the majority of the peoples, should better keep its mouth shut.
Also applies to the US, where, according to Princeton, democracy is completely raped by big companies.
It is estimated that it will take fifty years to change Thailand.
And an end to the stranglehold of Thailand and the Thai by the current, predominantly Chinese rulers.
Unfortunately, after ten years in Thailand, I don't see that happening.
Nor is the end of the bribe culture, after all, the Chinese way of doing business is based on “squeeze”.
The best helmsmen are ashore. Why should everyone be the way we want or wish to be? There are countries where, in general, everyone has a big mouth and goes to the polls proudly. And there are countries where the people are accustomed to being led by a government. Everyone has their own way. My Brazilian ex-wife used to say: “every country deserves the government it has”. She grew up in the time of a junta. Her father was arrested one day, held captive and tortured. One day he appeared again. In 23 years I have seen Brazil grow from a military junta to a democratically run country. There was also a lot of corruption there, but there were protests and things got better. It is up to the people themselves to be more or less happy with their own society. And if it ever gets too much, Thailand will also step into the breach. As long as you don't do this, it's not too much.
I agree with the author in some areas, less so in others.
It seems to me a fact that Thailand, like all neighboring countries, has enough potential to be significant in the world economy. It can also improve a lot on a social level. All this is possible, but, as the writer explained, Thai politics is not in favor of it at all. It is better for them if the elite remain rich and the rest of the population poor.
As far as that population is concerned, probably 99% of the Thai, they usually agree with this point of view.
The problem, however, is that no one really takes a critical look at it.
In recent years I have already made some friends in Southeast Asia. Many told me that they are annoyed by , but they nevertheless love their country very much and would absolutely never want to live anywhere else. (really? If you can choose between living in Thailand or in the Netherlands, objectively you choose the Netherlands)
When I then replied that it is strange that they (the people who complain) do not want to change the policy in their country, there was always an eerie silence. Most kept it to: 'it can't be changed', some to 'you don't understand the problem' (explain it then!). It was only a few who said that it is difficult to change things because there is only a limited democracy and the majority of the population is not involved.
So it seems to me that the biggest problem is that hardly anyone in Thailand actually goes against irregularities. It can't be that difficult to get a majority in such a country that stands up for all citizens! Or do you?
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What I disagree with is that the writer portrays Thailand in a rather negative way.
Compared to other countries (Africa, Philippines, countries at war…) things are better in Thailand.
The gap between rich and poor is certainly not the greatest and corruption could be worse. At least the Thai is not exploited or illegally imprisoned. It's okay with censorship.
read the book “taksin” by the same authors as “history of thailand”
a culture is not so easy to change, apart from whether ours is better.
Clearly another story of a Westerner who just can't get used to Eastern culture, where other norms and values are appreciated.
A matter of integration and acceptance, but Westerners are not very good at that, they know everything better and cancer is in the Dutch blood.
I enjoy every day that I'm here, for almost five years now, and I've been able to leave the sanctimonious Western culture behind me.
Ronald.
The Thais have a backbone like a mussel? In Thailand's not-distant past, people who had "well" backbones were imprisoned or shot. What about farmers/women who now plant their rice in the hot sun, also people without backbones?