'Europe is after the Dutch pension pot'
There is more than 1700 billion euros in the Dutch pension pot. That is a huge amount even by European standards. Brussels therefore looks lickingly at this enormous capital that the Dutch have saved together. Thanks to a smart move, Europe is getting more and more say over our pension money and you can expect that in a few years we will no longer be in charge of this fat wallet.
Dutch politicians have been asleep. PvdA, VVD, GroenLinks and D66 have blindly agreed to a new European pension directive. Only the German government was awake, they managed to keep the German pension pot out of the hands of Europe. And that is important because it is expected that our pension money might be misused to keep ailing Italian banks afloat.
Interesting in this context is an article by The Post Online. We quote:
“We decide something. Then we wait a while to see if anything happens. If there is no riot, no revolt breaks out – most of them don't know what has been decided anyway – then we move on. One step at a time, until there is no turning back.”
This statement by European Commission President Juncker in Der Spiegel also applies in full to European developments regarding our pensions.
Various pension funds are positive about the new European pension directive. They emphasize that virtually nothing will change in the Dutch situation, that it will even improve.
Devil in the details
The Dutch Bank has now been given the right of veto on value transfers to foreign pension funds. No pension money is transferred to Europe. And Germany is no exception. Apparently, therefore, little seems to be going on. Apparently, because as so often the devil is in the details.
According to a letter from State Secretary Klijnsma, the criteria for DNB's right of veto appear to be the same as the existing and already used criteria from 2013. This is therefore not new. At most, these will now be included in the pension law. But what really matters is whether DNB still has control and influence once the value transfer abroad has taken place. The answer to that is, no!
The EU can take measures with regard to pension money
Does the European Union have no access to our pension money? Paragraph 60 of the directive contains a cryptic sentence: “The Union may adopt measures”. This may mean that the EU can take measures with regard to our pension money, but it may also mean that the EU can withdraw an amount of pension money.
Just so you know.
Read the full article here and shudder: http://goo.gl/bDsfTu
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Brussels will continue to undress us. Since we retired, we have already handed in a net amount of 500 euros. I am chronically ill and will be at my own risk in April. Add that to that, you have worked for 51 years.
No matter how annoying your situation is, I don't see what 'Brussels' has to do with it, Marijke.
@ Cornelius,
See the line “Only the German government was awake and managed to keep the German pension pot out of the hands of Europe”
I see that as a government that stands up for its own country or inhabitants.
And so not when the pension pot is plundered, the people who have saved years for this, again get a neck blow when it comes to paying out.
Since the Netherlands has a government that does not dare to deposit an opinion as a loner, because suppose people start to think that that country with the finger has its own opinion.
The Netherlands, stand up for the Dutchman and be a man / woman to express that opinion publicly.
LOUISE
Our pension pots have NOT been looted by the EU, that's a fact. in the case of the ABP ('my pension fund') by the Dutch government. If that had not happened at the time, ABP – and therefore also me, as a customer – would now be in a considerably better position. Pension pots have partly evaporated due to low interest rates and insufficient investment returns, plus the calculation rules imposed by the Dutch government.
But to blame the EU for that is very easy.......
The EU is often portrayed as that bureaucratic apparatus that is not subject to democratic control and that removes as much power as possible from the member states. This characterization often suits the governments of the Member States: when European legislation and regulations do not go down well in their country, the excuse is often that 'Brussels has to do it'. What is not told is that the EU cannot take any action without those democratically elected governments of the Member States having voted on it, nor that they have been involved in the entire decision-making process from the start. The fact that the 'EU preys on the Dutch pension pot' also suggests an uncontrollable activity, while the Netherlands has agreed to this Directive in the European Council of Ministers. Incidentally, a European Directive is not directly binding legislation, but only a directive for what Member States must regulate in their own national legislation within an agreed time. The statement 'The Union may adopt measures' therefore does not confer any power of its own on the EU, because those 'measures' are also subject to the decision-making process in which the member states take a decision.
Thought that the accrued pension rights are often in foundations with their own board. The government or the EU can still want as much as they want, but in the end the money belongs to a private organization, so no government. At most, the pensions of civil servants will then remain. Value transfers abroad still require permission from the board of the pension funds, with or without a veto from DNB. And I do not expect the directors of pension funds to jeopardize the assets to any extent,
In addition, my pension is built up in a company pension fund, so even further away from the government. Fortunately, there is always a judicial power in the Netherlands and in Europe to prevent or reverse wrong decisions by the government.
I therefore find this article a bit premature without looking at the interests of the private pension funds. The government is writing, but fortunately it is not always allowed to do everything. After all, political consent is also needed and which party wants to burn its fingers on this?
Ger, I also do not believe that value transfer will take place. But there is another risk: pension funds are currently struggling to generate returns and the possibility is not inconceivable, I think even real, that pension funds will be 'convinced' to invest in, for example, ailing Italian and German (Deutsche Bank…) banks due to the quite high efficiency. Investments in portfolios with bad loans will also be offered as an attractive investment option. In this way, the knife cuts both ways: the EU gains access to the Dutch pension pots on the one hand and these are used to protect the European banks, and indirectly the EU on the other. There are many roads leading to the Dutch pension money.
For years, pension funds have made the most twisted turns to achieve returns, because… your invested 20-25% had to grow to 100%. So, with less and less profitable safe investments, there is only invested in less certain. Government bonds from… Belgium, France, Spain, Portugal, Italy and .,,. of course Greece. Because… a country cannot go bankrupt, the secondary school economics taught. That the Greeks had already gone bankrupt 1890 times since 4, and the oh so beautiful example: Argentina, you know: far away, no SBS-6 news watching NL-er, who knew everything about it - also a few times. (Imagine: tomorrow morning no one in TH is allowed to have any more foreign currency, so it must be exchanged within 1 week and next month.. your TH bank account has become worthless. From Sept 1: only the new SIAM dollar. pensioners )
So those outstanding Greek debts had to be “saved”. Write off 40% (yes, YOUR and MY pension investments), after which the Euro states took over the rest by means of GUARANTEES (almost-not a penny has gone to Greece yet, only from the Euro states to the EURO pension funds cs. Is it going wrong – of course, of course everyone already knew then – then the national debts will go up and… just like Napoleon's assignats from 1812, they can go on forever… but 60% of the pension and insurance money, including your fire and funeral policy , have been saved.
Be on your guard because have you seen the Black Swans program? Then you know that no money is going to Europe. But to Wall Street. Those louts who manage our pensions are going to invest in interest rate derivatives. They themselves have no idea what they are doing. But let the thugs in Wall Street take the bait. And banks like Goldman Sachs. Who will soon make our pensions disappear as they did in 2007 with the mortgages.
DNB has no right of veto. Show me where that is then.
Of course the EU is after that honey pot. The Dutch interest is subordinate to the continued existence of the EU. And the survival of the EU is strongly intertwined with European banks, which reportedly need more than €800 billion extra to restore their capital buffers. It is my firm conviction that Dutch pension money will be used within a few years to protect the EU from further disaster. And the Dutch government will gladly cooperate in this.
quote : “The Union may adopt measures”. This may mean that the EU can take measures with regard to our pension money, but it may also mean that the EU can withdraw an amount of pension money.
I think suggestive. With this quote they could also skim large private bank accounts, for example putting everything above 10 million euros in the EU pot. So it won't be that fast.
I think they already skimmed private accounts in Cypres at the time, right?
True, but that was a measure of the Cypriot government and not of the EU………..
If your bank is bankrupt – after all, your savings account, on which you still wanted to collect interest, has been lent to… and it has gone bankrupt, so lent money will never come back, see now especially Italian banks – the pennies have “evaporated”.
In particular, the bills above € 100,000, mostly from people and companies that deal creatively with tax returns, many of Greek and Russian origin, were – temporarily – victims. Many did not want to complain, because.. how do you as a Russian official, company man) get so much money? Ah, company shares bought under Yeltsin from the then employees for 1 glass of vodka, and are now worth billions… (also Russians living in Thailand).
The Euro states then extended a saving hand to many a small salaryman, trader and pensioner.
I have informed myself about this subject. It is absolutely wrong that 'Europe' should or could get a say in our pension pot. The only issue was whether pension funds could establish themselves abroad. Well, the guidelines for that have become stricter. For example, the members of the pension fund and the Dutch Central Bank must give permission for this. The new guidelines actually confirm more Dutch sovereignty.
The next two links go to a business website and the FNV website: both are reasonable
satisfied with the new guidelines.
http://www.deondernemer.nl/nieuwsbericht/88382/pensioenroof-door-brussel-niet-waar
https://www.fnv.nl/over-fnv/nieuws/nieuwsarchief/2016/juli/europese-pensioenrichtlijn-maakt-vertrek-pensioenfondsen-naar-buitenland-moeilijker/
The slogan: 'Brussels is after our pension pot' comes from people who are anti-Europe. They are entitled to that, but do not do so on the basis of incorrect reporting. Our pension funds are safe from the influence of Brussels. Whether they also become less safe for other domestic reasons is another story.
Why should we give Brussels any say over Dutch pension funds? You can wait for the rules to change and for us to lose the money.
I'd bet a case of Singha on that.
I am not anti-Europe, but I am anti-EU as it strives to make a United States of Europe.
The fear that the EU wants to dig into the pension pots with its hands has only been fueled at the time by the statements of the President of the EU, Mr Van Rompuy. So that fear is not unjustified. There are more ways to get the pension pots on the EU balance sheet.
Our independence is only getting more squandered especially by D66, the party of the referendum in the 60s, which they want to come back from after the last referendum. Yes, it is not so handy if the result does not suit you, D66 is now behind that.
yes the title of the article is suggestive, Telegraaf level.
If you read the text carefully, it is ultimately about a veto (or not if they are too late) that DNB can cast if assets are transferred from a pension fund to the foreign fund. And reading this, it is therefore a transaction between pension funds, internationally, and has nothing to do with possible aces of the EU.
My conclusion : the article mixes fact with fiction, so a bit of nonsense.
The EU has already cost us Dutch people a lot of money, and not just the average net contribution of €7 billion per year.
The interest rate, and therefore the actuarial interest rate on our pensions, has also been pushed to 0 under pressure from the EU. This is to keep banks and countries that make a mess of it afloat.
In addition, the costs of not guarding the borders also rise into the pot, so that taxes, contrary to what has been promised for years, have to go up again and again.
As it stands now, with the current socialist liberal policy, this will never get better.
The United Kingdom is already proving, with 8x more foreign investment and an economic growth of 2,7x what it was before the Brexit vote, that the EU is a huge failed monstrosity.
This gross mistake that the Dutch government has now made with our pensions is, in my opinion, typical of this team of failures.
They just keep giving everything away. They don't seem to care who or what to, as long as they can give away our hard-earned money for free.
Those who are now retired have already felt it very hard, but the next generation just has to hope that he/she will see 1 cent of his saved money before his/her death.
Michel, how do you come up with the utter nonsense that the Brexit vote in the UK has resulted in 8x more foreign investment and an economic growth of 2,7%. Uncertainty there is and will remain high in the coming years and as long as future trade relations between the UK and the rest of the world remain unclear – and that will be the case for years to come – investors will be extremely cautious. Many therefore expect a recession rather than growth in the coming years.
By the way, do you have any idea of the enormous advantages that the EU and its predecessors EEC and EC have for our country? Have you bothered to read what that 'gross mistake' really is? Or are you just calling?
The pension contribution of employees is managed by the pension funds and they cannot generate the right profits to provide us with a pension that we expected. The pension law was improved some time ago, so that there is money in the pot when young people retire. Figures about the UK are not known to me and are not correct in my opinion. People often talk negatively about the EU, but due to free trade, which benefits the Netherlands in particular, it is financially one of the best countries to live in or to build up or enjoy your pension.
Moderator: discussion is about pension and not about Brexit.
This message is pure mood-making. Europe cannot and should not do this because the principle of equality means that this must be applied in all Member States and must therefore be reviewed and approved by its own parliament in each Member State.
If you no longer understand those regulations and just fantasize about them in response to a tendentious newspaper article, you will make a lot of people very and unjustly worried.
Do you have to explain to me why German politicians in particular have not agreed and want to keep their pension pots out of the reach of the EU?
Because China would like Germany to pay back for all those investments that China has made in Germany and thus saved the economy there. If the EU is allowed to say something about that, I estimate that those investments in China with pension funds from the Germans will not go through. Be glad you live in the Netherlands and not in Duiotsland.
As far as I am concerned, it is high time for a NExit, a BELGexit, a LUXexit, a FRexit, in short, abolish the entire EU.
Europe, and certainly the single currency, will only make us poorer.
– Sky-high taxes (more than half of our income),
– administrative crap,
– rule-making,
– bureaucracy,
– no democracy (because 3/4th of national legislation comes from European rules that do not take national reality into account)
And yes, there are drawbacks to that as well. But in the long run I think we are better off.
Bruno, everyone is entitled to an opinion of course, but wouldn't it be nice if it was based on the right facts and not just shouted? The level of taxes is a matter for the Member States, not the EU, and in all 'regulation' our democratically elected governments are ultimately the ones who vote for or against. Where you get that 3/4th from, by the way, is a complete mystery to me.
Before reading an article and possibly responding, it seems to me not unwise to find out the background of the person who writes the article and whether the magazine / website that publishes it.
The Post Online is not really the most objective opinion website.
Critics say about TPO, among other things: TPO is a 'hodgepodge of linguistically rather rattling bits about anything and everything: from cycling via heavy politics to the Lowlands.
I therefore take the value of the article with a grain or perhaps better with a grain of salt.
I completely agree with Cornelis and Tino. Now it is good to read critical pieces that are not in line with your own vision, for example, I am pro-EU myself, despite the fact that there is a lot to improve on the system. But a source like TPO is of course far from neutral and objective. They are like no style against the EU. People like to blame the EU. The Hague thinks that's fine, if it comes from a cabinet then people point the finger at Brussels, while the blame usually lies with the politicians in The Hague. Firstly, because on many issues for which Brussels is blamed, all Member States had to agree unanimously, which means that a delegation from The Hague in the European Council gave its approval. And it also happens that the Netherlands makes optimal use of the European scope.
For example, last year there was a fuss about some levy percentage. This went up in the Netherlands, Rutte pointed to Brussels while and a new Directive. In these new Directives, the EU gave Member States leeway between (just fictitious numbers because unfortunately I don't remember what it was about) say 15 and 25 percent. The Netherlands was at 15%, but seized the opportunity to go to the maximum of 25%. Had to be done by Brussels… no, Brussels allowed it, but they could have left it that way. And The Hague gets away with it. Parties such as the VVD laugh their ass off when Brussels serves as a lightning rod, and a PVV especially enjoys when they can kick the EU fact-free. And many citizens swallow it like sweet cake.
The same goes for these pensions. The way in which that happened is certainly something to say about it, for example, people in The Hague certainly seem to have slept again, and signed at the cross without taking note of the contents. But then first of all our Chamber (s) and / or government is to blame. The EU is almost always powerless if a member state does not want new rules. Those pensions are private property, Brussels cannot touch them if they wanted to. But the citizen is rather afraid that angry Brussels will steal all our hard-earned money with a big shovel.
So what was this really about? It mainly concerns cross-border pension activities. Something that is damn handy to arrange together. But the pension managers are the ones who have to work with those rules if they choose to cross the border. Brussels cannot plunder the pension pot, a pension fund with greedy managers, yes, they can squander the pension. But that risk was always there.
As a counterweight to the NPO propaganda I present:
- http://sargasso.nl/laffe-paniekzaaierij-pensioenen/
- http://sargasso.nl/hocus-pocus-en-weg-is-pensioen/
NB: also good links Tino.
mood making.
Politicians like to push their bad policies
welcome to EU. On the other hand, good measures by the EU are wrongly claimed by the same politicians.
Despite Brexit, the UK wants access to the single European market without the burden.
This proves the value of the EU.
Remember that the banking crisis was caused by the "casino management" of American and British banks. Something many European citizens still do
for pay.
The EU has already seriously limited the banks' room for manoeuvre, and it can do better.
The EU is and will remain important for every European citizen.
In NL we have TWO old age provisions: the AOW, paid by the current workers to the current pensioners. As a pensioner, you have therefore by definition paid GGEN CENT into your own state pension. Beneficiary on the basis of the latest legislation. If it reads: linked to life expectancy (as already written by Drees et al.) ween is increased to – just like then – 5 years below the average life expectancy, ie 80, then you will only receive state pension at the age of 75. If then also added: based on the cost of living in the country of residence, many in Thailand can expect a sharp drop, as do many "returned" Turks and Moroccans. Is also added: must remain in the economic circulation of the Euro country, you will not get anything outside the Euro countries. (Think of Wilders)
The second is your PRIVATE pension: 20-25% invested yourself and the rest had to come from investment returns. Nah, it's been pretty much gone for a few years now. Too bad, risk of the trade. Therefore, the interest on the common (State) debt has also become a joke. Remember: at the current € 480 billion for NL, 2% more interest means € 9,6 billion per year in savings, 2x the amount Wilders ran away from
However, from the 70s to the mid 00s, it benefited very much, so all current pensioners have to close their hands for what was built up THEN.
There has never been so much money in those pension pots as now, but ... the obligations have increased much more, for example because there used to be no participation relief and ... people are now getting much older. After all, it does not apply: until your.. 75th as we originally thought, but.. until your grave on your .. 85th ..
That so-called ACTUATE interest rate = cash value, the factor to calculate future obligations to a present cash value: ask your (grand)children with economics in their HAVO/VWO package: can you calculate it this way. Has everything to do with the WORLD interest rate levels, which “Brussels” can only think about, and cough. Dragi from the ECB and Jellen, the FED lady, can steer a bit, but that's pretty much it. Just look how hard they try to bring about inflation, with results… right, the psychological forces of consumers and companies cannot be fought against.
In various other EU countries, that pension is more comparable to just our AOW: the STATE pays out, because THERE you have saved 40 or more working years, as in France and Germany. Short on cash… right !
The EU consists of 3 circles of power: the elected parliament. They may vote on certain things and make A PROPOSAL.
Furthermore, the Council of European Commissioners appointed by the Member States, chaired by Junckers. Do may EXECUTE what the actual power, the Council of Ministers of the Member States have decided. For example, this includes Min. Edith Schippers for health care. And because of the Euro/cents: Dijsselbloem.
So.. the EU, “Brussels” ultimately has as much to say as the treasurer of the sports club “started in wooden shoes”: what the members have decided, they can implement. No more step. Oh, he can cough unsolicited…
Even the governments of the Member States cannot get private money, at most through taxes. However, that is decided per member state, and nothing in “Brussels”. So that means: go vote every time, you could allow a party to come to power that only keeps the AOW up in Euro country and taxes the pension returns at 50%...
And further: read an economics book. Your doctor will also not contradict you with the content of a Lommeradeel advertising newspaper.
Rules have been made by the EU to further destroy the citizen, the majority of the citizen knows nothing about these rules.
It would be a good thing if there should be a referendum on this and let the citizens decide for themselves.
The unelected leaders in the EU decide what we don't want.
It's time for us to leave the EU, if the pension money goes to the EU, say goodbye with your hand.
I'll try one more time, even if I'm a little discouraged: the decision-makers in the EU are, without exception, the democratically elected governments of the Member States, controlled by national parliaments.
I am for a limited European Union, but absolutely against a kind of United States of Europe, which is the ideal image of many politicians. Almost all decisions that are made are in favor of the multinationals, which also applies to the pension laws that the EU wants to push through. Same song for open borders. That only serves the economic interests of big business. The interests of the citizens (such as safety) are of secondary importance.
I have to contradict you this time, Khun Peter. The most important decisions (and where most of the money goes) are the support of farmers (almost 50 percent of the EU budget), aid to disadvantaged areas (such as Groningen 😉 and in Eastern Europe), promotion of mutual trade, measures in the field of the environment, etc. are all matters that can only be arranged in a European context.
But a little less attention for multinationals and especially banks can do no harm.
I think some are looking for a bogeyman for their badly invested money! Because even if there is 1700 billion in cash, this does not mean that it is well managed.
The danger lies in a completely different corner, an argument that I have not yet come across in the entire discussion, being that in a few years from the EU, with the argument "solidarity", our pension buffers will be used to, for example, fund the pensions of residents of France to pay. (NB: one must realize that pensions in France are paid on the basis of the pay-as-you-go system, as with us the AOW and France is actually already a bankrupt country.)
The politicians in The Hague will therefore have to be very vigilant to ensure that this grab from the coffers of our pension funds does not take place!
Very incorrect information. The EU has no say in the pension funds of the Netherlands. What is happening is that Dutch pension funds can transfer their money to another country where a better investment may be found.
De Nederlandse Bank NV reserves the right at all times to block a transfer.
I wish good and reliable information is given. This story also appeared in the Dutch media and was immediately taken down by pension funds, including my pension fund.
Again, the EU had and has no control over the pension money of Dutch pension funds.
when I read many reactions, the EU is not guilty of anything, not even keeping the borders open, how naive can a person be, those who will roar loudly when we will have lost everything, but now do not dare / want to say anything or even those gang of gangsters dared to support.
Would like to know what hand this nonsensical article is from. “By editor” it says, but who is the author? Can't call it anything else as an L point L story. A lot of comments don't make sense, as does the entire article. Keep writing about everyday things and not about topics like this that only provoke stupid reactions.
And everyone who laughs at the British with their Brexit in the first instance, but I think who has the last laugh…
Not yet, but I wouldn't rule it out in the future.