Expats in Pattaya are fighting for a fairer visa policy with the Thai Prime Minister
Although retired expats are sometimes considered beachgoers and bargoers, they contribute significantly to the Thai economy. A group of expats from Pattaya, mostly retirees or foreigners married to Thai citizens, have approached Prime Minister Srettha Thavisin to plead for more humane treatment.
John Foulds, a British retiree and leader of the group, noted that the government seems mainly interested in attracting short-term tourists from countries such as China and India and making life easier for affluent expat professionals. He referred to the policy of ten-year work permits and special tax breaks in the Eastern Economic Corridor that favors executives and professionals.
Foulds stated that there is rarely positive news for retired expats who have lived in Thailand for years and support Thai families. They may now face the requirement to register in Thailand's tax system due to changing revenue rules and more obstacles in renewing their annual visas. He suggested that expats who extend their stay annually should be exempt from these tax rules until they are fair and transparent. He criticized the idea that expats with already taxed pensions have to submit a lot of paperwork every year.
Other complaints from the group include changes to the 90-day reporting system, more paperwork required from Thai banks on balances, and concerns about mandatory health insurance. Foulds added that older retirees like himself are being forced into expensive visa options such as the 10-year Long Term Residence or 5-20 year Elite. Many retirees are considering leaving Thailand for countries with friendlier visa regimes such as Vietnam or Cambodia.
Visa options in Thailand are complex and range from options for wealthier foreigners to traditional extensions of stay based on retirement and marriage. There are estimated to be at least 300.000 mostly male visa holders who financially support Thai women and families, and possibly another 200.000 foreigners who stay in Thailand partly on tourist and non-immigrant visas.
A spokesperson for the Tourism Authority of Thailand acknowledged the unrest among expats over the recent earnings announcement, and a representative of Thailand's immigration hotline noted that the rules for annual renewals have remained largely unchanged over the past fifteen years. Given Thailand's reputation as a haven for retirees and the high daily expenses of this group, Foulds' group is advising the Thai Prime Minister not to ignore these contributions to the economy to avoid the potential loss of an important market.
Source: Pattaya Mail
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Known as Khun Peter (62), lives alternately in Apeldoorn and Pattaya. In a relationship with Kanchana for 14 years. Not yet retired, have my own company, something with insurance. Crazy about animals, especially dogs and music.
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Fairer visa policy? I think they mean 'easier'. Thailand is a country with an enormous amount of paperwork and I can think of more actions that are purely due to bureaucracy. Such as submitting two photos of your home every year and a route description, as if the entire region is moved annually...
As for the tax rules, they aren't that difficult, are they? You complete that form and may or may not pay your income tax. A problem with requesting a form does not come from Thailand but from the NL or BE services; this blog talks about it regularly. It will be no different for fellow emigrants.
But you are free to ask questions. I'm curious to see what will come out of it. And if they get an answer...
You write your contribution, like so many here, purely and solely from your point of view.
For example, not every nationality falls under the same rules in terms of tax.
Regarding taxes, for example, all Belgians are liable to pay taxes in Belgium.
Due to the treaties between Belgium and Thailand, a Belgian (in the current situation) does not have to pay tax in Thailand, but this is different for Dutch people.
Personally, I would much rather pay taxes to the Thai treasury as my current tax rate on my pension from Belgium, as a single person, is 24%.
Recently (since a year two), the Belgian tax authorities added an extra 100 euros after the calculation because we live outside Europe.
Different rules apply to Dutch people, and probably also to other nationalities.
It does not seem illogical to me that Thailand would charge taxes to Expats. After all, we also use the infrastructure of the country where we stay, although with all its advantages and disadvantages.
You are of course right about the paperwork.
Interesting article, I certainly largely agree with it.
I also think the first reaction I read from Erik Kuijpers is correct.
I am Dutch, I know much less about Belgian tax rules and actually know almost nothing.
All in all, the Dutch tax system has at least one “very strange” (in my opinion incorrect) rule, especially for people who live outside Europe (the Schengen countries and a few more) (so (for example) then emigrated to Thailand): people who come from the Netherlands (Dutch passport etc.) pay, if they live in Thailand for example, more tax in the Netherlands while living in Thailand, than exactly comparable people who live in the Netherlands have to pay in the Netherlands (i.e. “…more tax is withheld in the Netherlands from Dutch people who live in Thailand for example…”). In addition, it is certainly “very strange” to call that if you live in Thailand for example, that you will in any case be able to “enjoy” much less of what is done in the Netherlands with the tax money (mainly for people who “do” live in the Netherlands), paid by the government, etc. This has to do with tax rules/legislation in the Netherlands concerning the General Tax Credit (in recent years the legislation on this part has been adjusted (is that legislation less favorable for people who have emigrated to Thailand for example).
Another point, for example, is that it is “very strange” that if you have worked as a civil servant in the Netherlands during your life (and therefore receive your pension after retirement from ABP), that it is, at least to this day today (which will probably change “soon” as a result of a newly drawn up treaty between the Netherlands and Thailand) is that as a former civil servant you always owe tax (for the ABP part) in the Netherlands (while if, for example, you case to this day, you receive a pension from the business community, in which case you do not owe tax (for the company pension part) in the Netherlands.
I emigrated to Thailand in 2014 and conducted 2 (digital) lawsuits (based on what was 2015% clear to a specialist from the tax authorities who contacted me at the end of 100 (I had been a civil servant and was now on an ABP optional pension). , and everything he said was 100% clear to me at the time), on appeal and on appeal, to date (both) lost because people who work at the tax authorities, with the help of a lawyer who also comes from the same tax authorities , creating an “alternative truth.” What I at least know 100% myself, can explain, fully support, etc., is that I have not lied, never and not now (and I will, if necessary, continue to do so until my death). obtain justice). Anyway, what I just wrote down only became (more) clear to me (in and after 2020) during the course of the appeal case.
There may be more “strange rules” that can be mentioned, so I'll leave it at that (for now).
Best regards,
Frans Rops
What a great initiative! The foreigners are now waiting for the new tax law, but will leave if it passes. Paying tax on money that is already taxed in the Netherlands, your savings and your pension, is not nice. I also hope they include the TM 30 form. So bad if you don't sleep in your own bed for 1 night, you have to travel all the way to the immigration office in Sri Racha with your rental contract, the details of your landlord, the TM 30 form, etc... My landlady is old and cannot do this online do and hotels are obliged to register foreigners, which means you will automatically be written out of your address.
Quote: The foreigners are now waiting for the new tax law, but will leave if it passes.
That's probably just an assumption.
By the way, I have never heard anyone complain about the double exemption you get if you live in Thailand.
Your state pension is taxed with an exemption in the Netherlands and your pension is taxed with an exemption in Thailand. (probably not for everyone)
Apparently that is coming to an end now.
It said like this, I won't go hungry because of it, but it will probably get people in trouble.
Reading the article I conclude that it is not so much about expats. Because what is an expat? It is generally accepted that an expat is someone who lives in another country because of his or her work. And an expat has very different interests than someone who lives in another country for retirement. Or as Immigration rightly indicates: retirement. And the English meaning of the word in Dutch contains the concept: withdraw/resign. That is exactly what a retiree does after a lifetime of work, and therefore his situation is not comparable to expats.
Fortunately, the rest of the article makes it clear that the English gentleman John Foulds indeed speaks on behalf of pensioners and not on behalf of workers, and wants to represent the interests of pensioners. The 3rd paragraph highlights that several retirees are concerned about the consequences of announced tax plans. These consequences are different from those of and for expats. So talk about your own situation and don't confuse the story by mentioning another interest group. Apparently that is not enough for him because he also adds all kinds of Immigration procedures to strengthen his case. But arguing that because you already pay tax in your source country and because of 90-day notification and extensions of stay, you should no longer have to do so in your country of residence does not make your argument more credible. It is right that a TAT representative indicates that the Immigration rules have remained the same over the past 15 years.
What then remains of the argument of Jonh Foulds? He posits that ignoring the "pensioner" contribution to Thailand's economy implies a potential loss of an important market! But the question is, is that really the case? It would have been much better if he had shown with facts and figures that the "at least 300.000 mainly male visa holders through their financial support" have a major socio-economic impact on the lives of many Thai women, including their Thai families and in a broader sense on many Thai families.
In other words: don't complain about your situation because you are doing very well in this country, don't involve another group because their interests are different, don't drag in irrelevant situations because after all it is a different subject, but the Thai interest. set priority. This is where the actual strength of the argument lies, because putting Thai interests first is what we already do with our Thai relations and what we are very experienced and skilled at. But will it be heard?
Soi, the word expat simply means emigrant. That's what the Fat Van Dale says. In practice, this often refers to the seconded person. Posted persons are people who are employed somewhere and who maintain the bond with their homeland. Embassy staff are part of this, loaned professionals, technicians and so on. Secondment means 'temporarily having someone work elsewhere'.
Others are emigrants; according to the dictionaries, an emigrant is someone who leaves his country (emigrant) to settle somewhere else. Emigration is therefore 'out' and not 'in'. An immigrant is an 'incoming emigrant'. Immigrating is therefore not 'out' but 'in'.
Can you immigrate to Thailand? You can put a tree over that. I consider myself an immigrant when I move home and hearth to Thailand, i.e. when I move to a new place of residence. Metterwoon, 'with living', the word dates back centuries. Others sometimes argue that in Thailand you only receive a stamp for only one year and therefore do not immigrate, but you can officially become a resident (resident, permanent resident, resident) if you start that procedure. Thai tax law considers you 'resident' after 180 days, and this also applies to a driver's license after a few months of residence.
For that reason I use the word 'emigrant' for pensioners who move to another country of residence and the word 'seconded' for temporary employees.
Generally speaking and not only from the Dikke van Dale, expat is an abbreviation that stands for 'expatriate'. This refers to an employee for an international organization who moves to another country for a temporary period to live and work there. After this period, the expat will return to the home country. There are many who, for example, are seconded to China, Japan or Thailand from their parent company. But of course it doesn't have to just be about detachment. That is nonsensical reasoning. Because in practice, expat appears to be an elastic concept. For example, people who move abroad and look for a job locally are often considered expats. In this case they are not sent by an existing employer. In short: it is nonsense to call an expat a seconded person because it does not cover it all.
There are also expats who never return to their home country and build a new life here. And people who take (early) retirement and settle in a warm holiday country are also often called expats. In the article about best man John Foulds, a number of 300 people is mentioned. In other words, pensioners, and therefore stamped Retirement by Immigration. They emigrated. You phrased that well. To then immigrate to Thailand. That's also correct. But actually your first reaction misses the point of the article, because Foulds complains on behalf of a number of like-minded people about Thai plans regarding a new tax system, and he drags in irrelevant visa rules. But it doesn't matter. There are more abuses. Especially those who believe they should interfere in Thai issues from abroad. Please read: https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/maatwerk/2015/03/expat-wanneer-ben-je-het-
As a small self-employed person, I understand all too well that people have difficulty with the bureaucracy that is sometimes suffocating.
However, it was my choice to build a life in Thailand that allows me to live in this bureaucratic, but oh so beautiful and pleasant country.
No one forced me, and I accept (sometimes with some difficulty) the disadvantages of living in Thailand, simply because there are so many advantages.
I welcome simplification of processes and procedures. I eagerly await the day when I no longer have to sign dozens of documents that disappear into a large pile somewhere. Until then, I accept the situation as it is.
Those retirees who are considering (threaten?) to move to Cambodia or Vietnam, because they think it is better there, should do so.
If it is so much better there than here in Thailand, I wonder why they haven't left yet...
Well said Hans!
And I don't believe much of those threats from those retirees who will leave for somewhere else. There are always and everywhere complainers. But at the end of the journey they all remain in Thailand.
I have lived here for many years now. Is it perfect here? No, but that's not necessary. What I do know is that it is much better here than in 'my' Belgium. If you can put things into perspective a bit, this is more than good!
It's not that simple, I came here to Thailand as an expat 12 years ago and now I know what it was like then
the best choice for me. Now I wouldn't do that anymore, unfortunately Cambodia or even Laos are much better for foreigners, now it wasn't like that in the past. These countries are especially popular for people who want to start a business
better, many foreigners who first tried to start a business in Thailand can be found in Laos and Cambodia.
A fairer visa policy?
You mean more consistent, simpler (more online, less paper) and rules applied in the same way everywhere. Applied by Thailand's embassies and consulates abroad and by immigration offices in Thailand.
This blog has noted and demonstrated many times that the rules that exist (and are sometimes not communicated properly and unambiguously) are not applied in the same way everywhere and always; sometimes in favor of the foreigner, sometimes to his/her disadvantage. The reasons behind this difference in application of the applicable rules are very diverse and vary from lack of customer friendliness on the part of the official to anger on the part of the official because of the clothing or other behavior of the foreigner.
On this blog it has been noted and demonstrated many times that the rules that exist (and are often well and clearly communicated) are applied almost everywhere and always in the same way. With some changes in the details such as a signature or a copy more or less. Where it does not work out in favor of the foreigner, it is always because of not being able/willing to meet the conditions. Recently: changing 800K from bank account to get more interest, and not being able/willing to switch to the option of 65K per month, because Thailand Immigratione just has to bend. It is not surprising that there is a lack of customer friendliness from the official to angry clothing or other behavior of the foreigner.
Dear Soi,
Of course, there are foreigners who believe the rules should be changed in their favor. But it is also true that there is sometimes arbitrariness on the part of the Immigration officer. If the cap is wrong on him/her, the foreigner is the victim. And this time is different from the last time, without any changes to the rules (via the website). The official then says that the website has not been updated. In addition, the workload in immigration offices varies greatly. I have now had experiences with a few offices since 2006 and I can assure you that an office where there is very little to do (Pathumtani: maximum 15 minutes in and out for annual renewal) is heaven and earth different from an office where it is always intensely busy ( Bangkok: extension costs at least 5 hours, of which 4,5 hours of waiting). The result is not only a difference in time but also in the stress of the official (and the extent to which he/she recognizes you from the previous time).
The Thai system is bureaucratic, not customer-friendly, allows countless opportunities for corruption and only becomes more customer-friendly if the authorities have an interest in it; not as an endeavor in itself. Look at the discussion now about changing the visa requirement for some nationalities because the current situation hinders tourism and some neighboring countries are changing.
I think you are right about the work environment.
In Khon Kaen, the immigration office has a spacious workplace for civil servants and good climate control.
And there is always a good atmosphere there, and the officials often remember you if you visit regularly.
You can have copies and passport photos made in front of the civil servants' office and they can check whether you have all the necessary documents. (last time I forgot the bank documents, my memory is getting bad)
Just back and forth to the bank, problem solved.
Furthermore, people don't usually come there in shorts.
This is generally not considered polite for adults when going into town.
So not even in an immigration office.
And it seems to me that you lower the status of the official if you are not polite by showing up in shorts.
I really wonder what is bureaucratic about the annual extension. I request an affidavit and proof of family composition. I have an appointment on December 19 at 10:2, go there with the necessary copies and 1900 x 30 baht and leave half an hour later. OK, they can abolish the tm XNUMX as far as I'm concerned. Maybe that will happen someday. But we chose this ourselves
Nicole, copies, THAT is bureaucracy. The same pieces of paper every year and they already have them. I sometimes wonder whether they archive all those copies and not let their children draw figures on them at home...
They use all kinds of paper to print on it every 90 days. I've had one before that had all the details of a Russian on the back.
There is a bright spot: Thai people with a foreign passport containing a visa for Thailand no longer have to renew it every year. When entering and leaving, they must present the Thai ID card (batpassachon) in addition to their passport. If a first name is different from that on the passport, you must submit the statement issued by the amphue at the time. With its English translation,
Saves a lot of hassle with forms and 2000Bht.
I have been promised to post the original text of the law (of course in Thai) on my FB within a few days.
Whose deed..