Open Letter to the Ambassador of the Kingdom of the Netherlands in Thailand, Mr. Karel Johannes Hartogh.
Open Letter to the Ambassador of the Kingdom of the Netherlands in Thailand, Mr. Karel Johannes Hartogh.
Dear Mr. Hartogh,
Here are some considerations and questions in response to the measure that the embassy will check income requirements and legalize signatures on income statements through personal contact. Partly an understandable, partly perhaps a somewhat ill-considered measure.
This is not the first request you have reached regarding this matter. I am very well aware of that. The Embassy has already announced that it will provide further explanation. As you know, you are entirely dependent on the decisions of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. I therefore request that you forward this letter to the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Mr. Bert Koenders.
Many Dutch people living in Thailand have now panicked due to the new measure. That cannot and should not be the intention.
Now some questions.
1. Were these measures taken at the request of Thailand, or is it a Dutch initiative?
2. How does the embassy intend to check whether income that does not come from the Netherlands really exists? This is not possible via the Dutch tax authorities. Are bank transfers and/or statements from the paying agency (including companies) sufficient for this, or is it expected that the tax authorities from various countries will do what the Netherlands wants, whereby this group will become dependent on the cooperation of other countries, which will lead to uncertainty and arbitrariness?
3. Many Dutch people have no income from the Netherlands and, in that respect, are not subject to Dutch legislation.
4. Can a statement applied for now still be used in 2017? These statements are usually valid for 6 months. Wouldn't that be a nice way to give people more time, to meet the new requirements, or to take a closer look at the sense and nonsense of the new measure? Those who have to extend their visa in January can no longer meet the three-month 800K deposit requirement. Undoubtedly, the State Department will push this question to Thailand's immigration authorities, trying to evade responsibility for the consequences of its actions.
5. Is it not possible to have the signature placed at the social services, where the declaration of life for the state pension is also signed and stamped? This saves thousands of people an unnecessary and expensive trip to Bangkok. Surely it should be possible and very simple to coordinate this with the SVB. The measure affects precisely the least well off of the compatriots living here, who can meet the Thai income requirements with their AOW and pension.
6. How does the embassy think it will be able to speak to 9.000 (estimate) Dutch people per year, that is about 30 per day, without appointing extra staff, who can at least be expected to speak the English language and better master the Dutch language? Is there a danger that waiting times will arise, as a result of which many people will be late for their visa renewals, which will lead to hefty fines and possibly deportation?
7. Does the Embassy (read: The Ministry of Foreign Affairs) believe that the fact that voting can be done by mail in the upcoming parliamentary elections offers the possibility of fraud and does it implicitly indicate that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs Home Affairs violates democratic rules?
8. What is the point of legalizing a statement, for which many have to travel hundreds of kilometers, with the caption: “The Embassy of the Kingdom of the Netherlands accepts no responsibility for the contents of this document?”
9. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs is known to be taking measures that must be applied in all Embassies. This from an efficiency point of view. This Ministry in particular should be aware that there are major differences between the countries of the world and that a measure that works fantastically in Belgium can cause major problems in Thailand.
Although I am aware that checks are unfortunately necessary, many people suffer from a measure, the implementation of which does not seem to have been thought through enough. If the Thai government demands this, it will have to be made clear that a transitional arrangement of at least six months is desirable, especially since the different immigration services also apply different rules.
The 6 weeks that, partly filled with holidays, remain until January are simply too short. This could lead to families being broken up, people being sent back to the Netherlands who have nothing left there, and worse.
Hoping that through your intercession something can be done about this unnecessary arbitrariness,
sign, I, thanking you in advance for your cooperation,
best regards,
Dr. Maarten Vasbinder (general practitioner, medico familar e comunitario)
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Maarten,
Also an excellent letter, which sheds a different light on the matter on a number of points. In consultation with Thailandblog I will not send my letter until tomorrow.
In fact, this statement is completely superfluous. An annual statement or statement from the benefits agency should suffice and will be in most countries.
However, Thai authorities always require an embassy stamp and signature. And an embassy can only legalize a signature of someone whose signature is known. The Thai regulations often do not fit well with the Dutch, but make that clear to an official sitting in The Hague. After 27 years of working at the embassy, I have often not succeeded
At the request of Thailand? If so, why not reciprocity as usual in relations between countries? Making residence permits for Thais here in the Netherlands dependent on their income from Thailand. No more Dutch passport for Thai nationals. No more work permits, etc. They have it rather high in their head there in Thailand. For a developing country. I will not come there without money like my wife came to the Netherlands. Without a sauce. But she was welcome here! In recent decades I have sent at least 1,5 million baht to my in-laws in Isaan as disguised development aid.
And now I can't even come and live there in my old age.
Or I have to go through a Kafka-like process. Counter here counter there. Or digital counters
Lead for old iron.
I just received the message that:
The change in the current procedure is being implemented on the instruction of the Directorate of Consular Affairs of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in The Hague.
It therefore seems to be a measure that has been imposed on all embassies. Thailand has not requested it.
Then management is the next step. Have the reasons been stated?
You can work in two ways. Bottom up and Top down.
Top to bottom is usually the best method. So straight to the minister.
True, but take it from me that it immediately ends up with the management. The minister won't even see it.
Understand your frustration and anger, but to saddle Thai nationals who have left for the Netherlands, or who are going to leave for the Netherlands in order to join their Dutch partner, with the demands that Thailand makes of foreigners, of course solves nothing for the problems that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is currently causing with the new measure on the declaration of income and legalization of the signature. Wish mr. Vasbinder and tomorrow also Petervz
in any case good luck and hopefully they will receive a positive response to their 'open letters'.
Got an email from the embassy. They shift it to The Hague where they apparently still do not realize that the AWBZ was abolished at the end of 2014 and the health insurance fund at the end of 2005. Or they want to force us all to keep a bank balance because then they will be rid of us….. Difficult, those people in the waiting room....?
Dear Martin,
thanks for the excellent way you worded this.
Chris
Wonder how many put the 400.000 or 800.000 baht in the bank and don't need an explanation?
I do save a lot of hassle 🙂
In addition to this question, I would like to note that there will most likely be a significant group of Dutch people who cannot put 800.000 or 400.000 in the bank.
And also that there will be a considerable group who, due to the gross-net requirement, no longer meet the income requirement, can therefore no longer obtain an extension of stay and will have to return to the Netherlands, where they have nothing left and end up on the street. to stand.
Good work from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.
Or do I smell that service here we can't make it more fun (but we can make it worse)
I expect that it will be quite a lot of people who will get into trouble. Those who had a nest egg on an account certainly had to use it to supplement their income. The Thai Baht has become much more expensive in the last 5 years (more than 25%) and the failure to compensate pensions for the cost increase in the Netherlands during the last 5 years has not been able to compensate for this. Most Dutch people in Thailand are married, the children are getting older and also incur more (study) costs. I think there are already people who no longer renew the Retirement Visa because they know they run the risk of being refused. Life in the Isan countryside can be very cheap and people manage to live on less than the income requirement of the Thai Immigration Service. But with the Military Government's stricter attitude towards “overstay” one takes a very big risk to choose this path. But victims get caught in a “trap” money to go back to the Netherlands could also be missing. I really believe that the Dutch government has no idea what they are getting morally and financially through this measure.
Maarten, thank you indeed for the excellent and clear way in which you have expressed this.
Hi Mr Vasbinder, you have put it very well, but the following question still lingers in my mind. Due to the reciprocal treaty relationship between Thailand and the Netherlands, a notary mi in Thailand is entitled to legalize a signature. Is that correct?
And has anyone already checked whether there is a right to compensation, ie that costs incurred by citizens to comply with Dutch regulations are reimbursed?
Hi Adam,
Thailand has not signed the 1961 Convention de La Haye. Therefore, civil-law notaries cannot legalize a signature intended for the Netherlands. That such a signature is sometimes accepted is another matter.
I don't know anything about compensation. Maybe you have time to find out
In my opinion, the worst thing is that a number of banks such as ABN AMRO announced via this blog that all Dutch accounts of Dutch people living in Thailand will be canceled in 2017
Can someone tell me how this all works??
I have to go to Bangkok for a statement my Dutch bank wants to get rid of me how can I prove what I receive in benefits per month
Do you know what will happen???? a lot of Dutch people no longer go to immigration
Dear Ton, You must have your payment transferred monthly to a Thai bank by the relevant authority at your request. I myself have the Bangkok bank in Buriram no withdrawal costs 1 times a year 200 baht for the debit card you can withdraw the entire amount without costs. You can always withdraw 25.000 baht many times at the same time that you are at the bank, I myself have a benefit from the SVB and the ABP that it was no problem at all to send it to Thailand.
Greetings Leen.egberts
We hope that Belgium will not follow this example ?
Hi,
Small addition. Your purpose stated in the first paragraph and point 7 are two completely different things in my view. I therefore think it would be better to drop point 7 altogether. Does not benefit the argumentation and creates confusion about what you want to achieve.
G'day Wibar,
Basically you have a point. the point, however, is to demonstrate mismanagement. If two ministries use different criteria with regard to legalization of signatures, in this case, there is arbitrariness. That can never be the intention of the state, at least not openly
It is simply forgotten that before it had to be shown a gross income and now
it says on the Nett Income form.
Just enough not to be able to meet the conditions.
How do I make it as difficult as possible for our own people
Dear Martin,
A neat letter.
Unfortunately I am missing 1 aspect in the letter.
Who pays for the transport costs by ambulance from a village in Sakon Nakhon province (675 km) to the embassy in Bangkok?
Dear Chander, if you are unable to go to Bangkok, someone will come to your home at your request, it must be urgent.
Greetings Leen.Egberts
Dear Leen Egberts,
If this is the answer from the Dutch Minister of Foreign Affairs, then I'm fine with it.
Probably by no one. I've experienced this before with passports. Citizens will figure it out. In exceptional cases, they came to your home. This is almost impossible in the case of an extension of stay, due to the fact that there is little room within the time.
Dear Thailand blog readers,
An open letter to the Embassy, this is the 2nd one I read. We don't do well, it burdens the embassy and it doesn't help us. Give preference to 1 of the 2 letter writers and let them deal with the embassy that all thailandblog readers support, because that makes us strong.
It is absolutely not the responsibility of the embassy, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, or rather this government.
As I understand there are quite a few Dutch people here in Thailand, estimated by the embassy at more than 25.000. Many of them have state pension. Since 1 January 2015, all benefit recipients have had to give up considerably because the tax credit lapsed for all those who lived outside the EU.
The tax credit, or sink subsidy as it is also called, was created years ago by surrendering wages. This way, the woman could also generate some money at home when she was not working. So all people have lost wages for that in the past and now they are taking it away again in an improper way, even discrimination if you ask me, in any case it goes against the human rights and the right to equality principle.
If we are here in Thailand with so many Dutch people, it must be possible to make a large pot of money together and use that money to hire a good lawyer to represent our interests.
Suppose 25.000 people times 10 euros is still 250.000 euros for a lawyer to summon the Dutch state for this unlawful deduction. In any case, if only half want to participate, it will only cost about 25 euros per person, which is nothing to prevent the government from stealing.
As I read that ABN-AMRO wants to drop its customers outside the EU, they are all a result of the EU and our government, ING, Rabobank, etc., they will all follow. Also the tax authorities that are going to make more and more demands that they don't have to deal with, we have to stop that, now and forever.
Thailandblog is a good platform to make us strong, a kind of union outside the EU, that should be possible.
Who participates, who picks up the thread, who becomes chairman, treasurer, controlling board members, come on, let's not let ourselves be pushed into the corner any longer.
Hope for a separate survey via Thailandblog with everyone who wants to participate and then decide whether there is support and implement it with sufficient participation.
Hi Roel,
You are absolutely right. However, the time for organization is each short. moreover, the embassy can forward the letters to Foreign Affairs. That's where the decisions are made.
Forming an advocacy association is a good idea, but it is not necessary.
Such an association already exists in Europe (VBNGB) http://vbngb.eu/
This association was founded in 2006 after the introduction of the Health Insurance Act. There is a lot of know-how and they have good contacts at the ministries and in the House of Representatives. My letter is also posted on their website which is read by over 100.000 people. The letter also goes to the second chamber, which, by the way, is going on recess for a few weeks. If there are enough members, we can set up a chapter. This has the advantage that we fall under them and therefore have no paperwork and that lawyers are provided if necessary. Membership is 60 euro/year I think I remember. More is also allowed.
However, litigating against the state is difficult and virtually impossible, even if you are right.
Lobbying is more successful.
Dear Martin,
I know that litigating against the state is difficult and the state will stretch as much time as possible. 10 to 15 years is very normal for the state, especially if they start to taste the loss.
I did not know about the existence of VBNGB, but there is no europe here, unless a separate department from outside europe has to be attached to it, the interests are not equal.
Still worth finding out and how much enthusiasm there is for it, I'm recommended.
I don't need an income statement myself, so it doesn't affect me, but I know many who are already under it or just on the edge and now with the expensive bath also come under the requirement of 65.000 thb per month. What irritates me most is that you can just get a visa for 15.000 baht at the visa office, besides immigration. They ensure that the farrang has enough money for immigration (corruption) that bothers me and the NL government is now going to cooperate to promote that even more.
The NL government has no idea of what is happening or what is possible here. But the Embassy should certainly make it clear to the Ministry that the miniseries does promote corruption with their new regulations.
Incidentally, it is still possible to obtain a one-year visa without an income statement, but in a slightly different way. I did that myself for about 7 years because I was not yet 50. Even today recommended someone who also has too little income. You have to go to NL for that.
I hope for everyone involved in a good acceptable arrangement, especially a transitional arrangement of at least 6 months for this is certainly a duty of the ministry.
Indeed, the VBGNB currently only works in the EU. That is because most of the “foreign” Dutch people live there. The articles of association refer to Dutch nationals abroad. I have extensive contact with the chairman of the association, even sat on the board for 4 years, and nothing prevents us from becoming a member. If we are with a large group, the association will certainly look after our interests. In Thailand, the group is large enough, at least if you get moving.
The larger the VBGNB, the more influence. After the elections they will have one or more people in the 2nd chamber.
I will ask the chairman to put a letter on this blog to explain what they can do for us. That can take several days
I always participate
Notify me when the time comes
Have already raised the new income statement procedure with one of the members in the second chamber
Looking forward to the upcoming elections
Legalization of signature does not depend on income verification. And if income (no one knows how) has been checked, then it is very strange that the embassy explicitly declares “The Embassy of the Kingdom of the Netherlands accepts no responsibility for the contents of this document”.
In other words, the embassy does not trust its own control! And then there is absolutely no understanding for income substantiation.
So what does Thai Immigration gain by introducing a new hardly thought-out and difficult and expensive (travel/accommodation costs) procedure for NL nationals? They still do not know whether the declared income is correct. After all, the Embassy says nothing about it! On the contrary; checked but still not clear………
Moreover, I wonder whether the embassy or Min Buza can impose an income check as a condition for a signature legalization.
Making an appointment in advance is also curious. I just think that you cannot arrange 1 things at 2 appointment (eg legalization signature and passport extension / renewal). So that will be 2 trips already.
The new regulation is completely incomprehensible for another reason. A number of rules often refer to Europe: : Well, we can't help it, because they are rules from “Brussels”.
In this case, the Netherlands deviates strongly from what is customary in Europe and, until a few years ago, also applied to Dutch people in Thailand. You submit a request with proof of your income (whether it comes from the Netherlands or elsewhere is unimportant) and the embassy will send you the desired income statement after verification. Easy, right?
For example, how does Germany do this? See this link:
http://www.bangkok.diplo.de/contentblob/3247334/Daten/6986343/RentenEinkommensbescheinigung.pdf
The first time you have to visit the embassy, the following times you can choose to arrange it in person at the embassy or to settle it in writing. When you visit the embassy you will receive the statement immediately, it can take two to three weeks in writing.
And England? Also interesting, because essentially the same as Germany, see:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/how-to-obtain-a-pensionincome-letter-for-thai-immigration
At the British embassy they don't want to see anyone in this matter at all. It can only be arranged in writing.
Come on Netherlands, don't make it harder than necessary!
Maarten excellent letter and I particularly look forward to the answer to your point 1 as my income / pension comes from different countries EU and non EU.
Thanks again and I look forward to the response.
Something that has completely escaped my attention is that in my opinion the NL embassy is going to do something that is not asked for at all!
The income form asks at the end:
Seen for legalization of the signature of…………………………………….. ,
this means no more and no less that the applicant must sign his income form under the supervision of a representative of the embassy, after which this embassy representative must confirm that the applicant has signed the application form.
The embassy does not have the obligation/right to check the income of the declarant, the declarant is responsible for this.
The embassy must ensure that the applicant signs the income form himself, after which the applicant is liable for the content of his statement. Incidentally, the embassy is not an accountant's office.
When the embassy can confirm this, there will be a lot of cold from the air, right?
Kind regards, Josh Scholts
Cold from the air? Surely the embassy's supervision that the applicant signs himself still means that you have to go to the embassy yourself?
For all embassies?
Have a look at the site of the NL embassy in Manila, Buenos A, Brasilia, Panama, Hanoi. Delhi, Islamabad, Jakarta and Pretoria/Windhoek and nowhere is the announcement as on the site of 'Bangkok'.
The income statement is nowhere under the list of consular statements, but the rate of 30 E is everywhere.
Now I really don't go through all 140 (?) ...
To be honest, I haven't checked a single website. Have something else to do.
It is normal that these kinds of directives are intended for all embassies. Countries where no income statement is made are of course not included.
It may indeed also be the case that only Thailand is affected here. That would mean there's a better chance of making a change
What concerns many people is that, and that is not clearly stated, that they cannot meet the income requirement.
Everyone must abide by the rules, unless it concerns us.
Yes I do and it sucks if you don't have enough income to stay here. But there is also something to be said for an income limit.
You have a point there. Only I don't think you will find begging farangs on Thai streets on this forum. Most here put their money where their mouth is and really do not receive any benefits from the Thai state, while there are plenty of Thai ladies living here in the Netherlands who do receive benefits. There will also be few farangs that are comfortably maintained by their in-laws in the Isan, rather the other way around. When the money is gone, they really go home.
The Immigration in Nongkhai no longer trusts any income statement from any country and just wants to see that 12 x 65.000 baht (for unmarried people) come into a Thai bank account monthly / periodically.
Then you will be rid of that trip to Bangkok and the costs. If they do all that, they can almost close the consular service…..
You can only submit your completed tax form in the Netherlands with the DigiD
number that is linked to you (I assume that you have internet access).
In other words, in this way it is also possible to confirm your empathy etc.
Sincerely,
It is a big problem for many Medelanders I understand..but both the Austrian and the Honorary Italian Consul in Pattaya still issue that desired income statement..Plus there are not so legal alternatives at the back door of Immigration Jomtien.
Dear readers,
Neat letter from Dr. Martin Vasbinder. I'm not going to go into the content. Our ambassador will take the letter
forward to BZ in The Hague. Whether The Hague does anything with it, I'm afraid not. This arbitrariness becomes
shoved down our throats by BZ. Our highly educated MPs don't understand that we don't understand that.
I therefore fear that this measure, if it comes into force, will be fatal for many of us.
The Old Master.
Can someone explain to me what this means for my situation? I work here on a Non-B visa at a private school in Southern Thailand, with work permit and temporary teacher license. I'm nowhere near the income and capital requirement I'm reading about. Can't I stay?
Dear Danzig,
Nothing really changes for you anyway.
You will get your extension at immigration on the same terms as you got them before.
The school will also have to provide the necessary evidence for this, just as before.
The amounts mentioned above are if you want to stay here as "Retired" or as "Thai marriage," and if you want to use an income to meet the financial requirements of an annual extension
If you want to stay in Thailand as "retired" or as "Thai marriage" when your contract has ended, you can of course do so and then you will have to meet those conditions, of course
If you receive any income from Thailand, you can of course also use it.
In that case, the website of the Dutch Embassy states the following
“In case you wish to legalize your signature on a self-declaration about income received in Thailand, the embassy is not authorized to do so and you must contact the Thai (tax) authorities for an annual statement, for example.”
We close the comment option. It's the embassy's turn now. Let's wait for the explanation before speculating.