Again the Dutch embassy (2)
The call of 1 October 10 for questions addressed to the Dutch Embassy yielded no less than 72 responses in XNUMX days.
Fortunately, there were many positive reactions about how someone was helped correctly and professionally at the Consular Section of the Embassy, there were also quite a few specific questions and, what I expected myself, also quite a few critical notes. I went to Bangkok with all these messages to talk to the Consular Section Head, Jitze Bosma and the Deputy Head, Filiz Devici more information and clarification of certain matters.
The Consular Section
The job description of this department is largely well described on the website, although the whole is somewhat more extensive. The most obvious tasks for us Dutch people are arranging all kinds of documents (passport, consular statements, legalisations, etc.) for Dutch people and processing visa applications from (mostly) Thais who want to visit the Netherlands (and other Schengen countries). . In fact, it is an administrative office, which has many similarities with a Civil Affairs department at a Town Hall in the Netherlands.
Right to consular assistance
They can enter Thailand all sorts of situations occur in which Dutch people get into difficulties. Consular assistance is then requested, which the Dutch embassy provides as much as possible. It is the duty of the Embassy to represent the interests of Dutch nationals in accordance with Article 5 of the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations dated April 24, 1963.
Having a “right” to consular assistance is based on a misunderstanding. Dutch law does not recognize a legally enforceable right to consular assistance. On each occasion, it is at the discretion of the embassy whether and what consular assistance can be provided. However, those options are very limited. The embassy must at all times respect the laws and regulations of Thailand, does not intervene in private matters, such as payment of hotel bills, medical costs, fines, nor does it mediate in looking for work or applying for a work permit.
Officials
Jitze Bosma and Filiz Devici are two Dutch civil servants stationed in Bangkok by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Their main task is to manage the Consular Affairs department and to ensure that all administrative actions are carried out in accordance with the laws and regulations of “The Hague”. It is important to know, I think, that although both will stay in Thailand for a while, they are only here temporarily. At some point it is their time to perform a task elsewhere in the world at a Dutch Embassy or at the Ministry in The Hague. I therefore think it is important, because they are often expected to empathize with specific Thai situations and backgrounds, but they simply lack a bond with this country, as many of us have. They must and can only carry out their work in accordance with the Dutch regulations.
Personnel
Mr. Bosma and Mrs. Devici are assisted by a number of Thai ladies for the counter activities. One counter is reserved for Dutch nationals who, for example, are applying for a new passport, need a certificate of Dutch nationality or have their signature legalised. The lady in question speaks Thai, of course, but also English and more than excellent Dutch. The other counters are intended for the submission of a visa application by Thais and other foreigners.
Visa application
The counters for applying for a visa to visit the Netherlands (and other Schengen countries) are “manned” by Thai ladies who speak only Thai and English. Dutch is not necessary, after all, the applicants are Thai or other foreigners.
Counter Policy
The policy at the Embassy is that only visa applicants are admitted to a counter. In the past, a supervisor (the sponsor) was sometimes admitted, because in many cases they provided the necessary documents. Unfortunately, this often led to misunderstandings, even quarreling partners, that it was decided to only admit the applicant for a visa. In most cases, this is a Thai lady who submits the documents and provides an explanation of the purpose of the trip and background information. A good preparation of the applicant and her partner is therefore highly recommended.
This policy is not accepted with thanks by everyone, I was "allowed" to experience it myself during my visit, that a Dutchman became furious and went completely crazy. Mr. Bosma had to act and after a personal conversation with that man, in which he was given an explanation, he backed down and apologized after all.
Jitz Bosma
Mr. Jitze Bosma has already worked at a number of foreign “posts” (jargon) before he was stationed in Bangkok. He says the following about his work in Thailand: “I have already experienced a few things abroad, but Thailand is unique again. Thailand is a low-threshold country, where more than 200.000 Dutch people from all social strata of the population go for a holiday or a longer stay every year. What strikes Filiz and me in particular is that many of those visitors feel bad about themselves travel to prepare. If difficulties arise, help is expected from the Dutch Embassy. Many answers to the numerous questions that reach us can be found on our website. However, our task and authority is limited and we are certainly not tour guides, messengers, social workers or money lenders. Everyone who comes here is responsible for his own actions and actions. If the need really arises, we are there to provide consular assistance, we do what we are allowed within the possibilities from "The Hague".
Visa Policy
According to Jitze Bosma and Filiz Devici, the Netherlands welcomes visitors from Thailand, but for whatever reason a visa is required to actually make that visit. Every Thai has the possibility to get that visa, provided that the regulations are met. A number of documents are required (see website) and the application must be explained personally by the applicant. No one gets preferential treatment, but no one is left behind either. Bosma does admit that in the past he sometimes had certain thoughts when seeing a Dutchman with a Thai lady, but that is in the past. “It is not for me to determine the value of any particular relationship. Again, if the conditions are met and the explanation is in order, a visa will be issued without further ado”.
However, if the conditions are not met on all points, it sometimes happens that people go home disappointed to arrange the necessary documents. Poor reading or understanding of the text on the website is often the cause. Bosma advises many to have the documents checked by someone else, but immediately adds that this does not mean that one has to spend a lot of money on the so-called visa offices.
Guarantee
(among other things in answer to the question of Marc van Vliet on 1 Oct 12)
A visa application must be accompanied by a number of documents. One of them is the guarantee. It is required that the applicant has sufficient means of subsistence and medical insurance and must also demonstrate by means of, for example, a return ticket, employer's statement, registration of school-age children, proof of ownership of the owner-occupied home and/or other immovable property, that return to his own country is likely. . With regard to means of subsistence, the applicant must submit documentary evidence that demonstrates that the applicant actually has sufficient financial means. This can be done by means of salary slips and bank statements, having an X amount in a bank account or the possession of a credit card is not sufficient in itself, because it has not been demonstrated that the applicant has a sustainable income.
If the applicant is unable to demonstrate the desired guarantees, a guarantor in the Netherlands can take over this task. The guarantor is required to provide a legalized proof of guarantee as well as proof that he/she has sufficient means of subsistence.
The second option is often used, but it is not necessarily necessary. A Thai can submit the application independently.
Guarantor non-Dutch
(in answer to Gerrie!8's question on Oct 1, 12)
In general, the guarantor in the Netherlands will have Dutch nationality. However, a resident of the Netherlands, ie registered in a municipality in the Netherlands, with a nationality of one of the Schengen countries, including Belgium, can act as guarantor. The visitor can simply submit the visa application to the Dutch embassy, of course with the same requirements and conditions as stated on the website.
Appointments at the Embassy
(in answer to Jos and Erik's question on Oct 1)
Partly due to increasing crowds at the counters for visa applications, it became necessary to spend the available time well and efficiently. In the past things sometimes went wrong, for all kinds of reasons, but that is also a thing of the past. The embassy has an appointment system, which is outsourced to VFS. If an appointment has been made in the manner stated on the website, it will be fulfilled without further ado, provided that the visa applicant reports to the gate on time.
Vfs global
(following response from Rob V. of Oct 1, 12)
To make good and efficient use of the time available for visa applications, the Dutch embassy uses the VFS Global appointment system. This often works well, but unfortunately it still does not always work optimally. Mr. Jitze Bosma acknowledges this and the problem has his constant attention. There is a lot of consultation with the management of VFS, who also arranges the agreements for more embassies, about improving the system. The staff of VFS also needs to be better trained. However, due to the international aspect of this system, Dutch will not play a role and people will be forced to limit themselves to the Thai and English languages.
Filiz Devici adds that the application form in Thai language will be put on the website soon. The process will be arranged in such a way that it can be completed in English or Thai language. So not in Dutch, after all the visa applicant is not Dutch, but always a foreigner.
The MVV applications are sent digitally to the IND on the same day or at the latest the next working day.
Fees
(in answer to Rob Piers' question dated Oct 1, 12)
The costs for a visa amount to 60 euros, which is in accordance with agreements made by the Schengen member states regarding the administrative costs of processing visa applications.
A complete overview of the fees (Regulation Consular Fees) can be found on the website: Rijksoverheid.nl
The rate for a short-stay visa is based on a cost model developed by the IND, which includes direct and indirect costs. Direct costs include the costs associated with processing and handling the applications, indirect costs relate to costs for operational management, IT and staff management.
Dutch driver's license
(in answer to B. De Jong's question on 1 Oct 12)
The Dutch embassy is not authorized to issue an international driving licence. This authority is reserved to the ANWB, where an IRB can be purchased on presentation of a valid driver's license.
I myself recommend purchasing a Thai driver's license, as suggested by other commenters. The procedure can be found on several websites and also in several postings on thailandblog.nl.
If necessary, the embassy can issue a Certificate of Authenticity for a Dutch driving licence. With this extensive English statement, a Thai driver's license can be applied for without too many problems.
At the embassy, people are often asked whether the Dutch driving license can be renewed here. That is not possible, it goes through the RDW in Veendam (more info: DMV) . What is required from us when renewing a Dutch driving license is a certificate of residence, which is requested by the RDW.
Wedding
(in response to Wim's question on Oct 2, 12)
A marriage under Dutch law cannot take place in Thailand. A short and clear answer. It doesn't matter if it's a same-sex marriage.
Death in Thailand
Although no specific question has been asked about this, just something to supplement the posting with the script for death in Thailand. Every year about 80 Dutch people die in Thailand and they can be either holidaymakers or residents. The embassy advises to work with a professional company if the remains have to be returned to the Netherlands. Many NL people have a funeral insurance policy that covers the costs of these types of companies. All the paperwork, arranging and waiting is not nothing, let alone when someone is also emotionally involved. At that point, the paperwork and waiting for the next of kin can lead to great anger and frustration. To prevent this, the embassy recommends outsourcing this part, if possible.
Personal issues
A few people have not so much asked a question in detailed responses, but have explained their personal issues in which the Embassy is involved. Of course Jitze Bosma read those reactions, he knows the people, he knows the situations, but refused to comment on them. Now I had not asked for that either, because thailandblog.nl is not a pillory and moreover Thailandblog.nl cannot act as a referee. These are deeper issues, where the persons involved must come to terms with the embassy themselves.
Closing comments
I got to know Jitze Bosma and Filiz Devici as two honest and committed people who enjoy their sometimes difficult work. There is no arrogance or haughtiness in that and they certainly do not want to appear that way. They may be civil servants, but sometimes they are just people like you and me, they make mistakes or wrong estimates. This can be found a few times in the responses, while at the same time it becomes clear that the error will still be corrected. Anyone who has a question can send an E-mail to the Embassy and will receive an answer. They do state that the questioner should first check whether the answer is already on the website.
One last thought
Yes, everyone should read the website for good information on all kinds of things. However, due to my long work and travel experience, I know that not everyone is able to read and understand the sometimes official language. Filling out forms is often an even bigger problem if possible. The latter goes very far, because numerous times I have filled in the fairly simple landing card for fellow travelers. The embassy cannot guide everyone through document country and I plead for help from outside. I think it would be an excellent idea if, for example, the Dutch associations would do something about this. I will come back to it sometime soon.
About this blogger
-
Bert Gringhuis (1945), born and raised in Almelo in the beautiful Twente. Later lived for many years in Amsterdam and Alkmaar, working in export for various companies. I first came to Thailand in 1980 and immediately fell in love with the country. Been back many times since then and moved to Thailand after my (early) retirement as a widower. I have been living there for 22 years now with my somewhat younger Thai lady Poopae.
My first experiences in Thailand as a kind of newsletter sent to family, friends and acquaintances, which later appeared under the name Gringo on Thailandblog. Many, many articles followed those first stories and that has grown into an almost daily hobby.
In the Netherlands still an avid footballer and football referee, but the years are starting to tell and in Thailand still avid, but the pool billiards is really of inferior quality, ha ha!
Read the latest articles here
IsaanJanuary 15 2025Chaiyaphum, also Isan
Food and drinkJanuary 9 2025The pomelo in Thailand
SightsJanuary 7 2025The caves of Pang Mapha
SightsJanuary 3 2025Phetchaburi, a brilliant diamond
Grinco,
Great piece. This will clarify things.
However, I do not think that it is the task of Dutch associations to help fill in forms. I think these associations are there for social contacts. They would be wise not to interfere with the completion of, for example, visa applications. This is asking for trouble.
My compliments Gringo, a useful piece of information. It gives a more objective picture of the people (civil servants) who work there and unlike TnT, I believe that the Dutch association would do well to help compatriots fill in certain forms if desired.
Moderator,
Every person with a Dutch passport, and certainly the elderly among us who have paid taxes in the Netherlands for years, must at all times be helped by the Embassy, even financially, which must of course be reimbursed later, so tjamuk has a good point and the moderator must therefore go to the Embassy to make things clear, then you are doing a good job for your blog readers/friends/fellow thinkers, e.g.
jointly contribute financially, if it is determined.
I met them Mr. Bosama in person
thought he was a very nice man
the people at the embassy can't help it
that their help is so limited they are just doing their job
I can only say that it went well, applying for son Ned's passport.
We spent the night at the neighbors Bliston, I work in the Off Shore and live in Pattaya so that we could walk to the embassies, on the day of our return, all papers were handed over just to take a picture of the little one across the street, not as thought by Mia just like Thai body or her friend with Samee Italien.
And after the announcement this takes 3 weeks it was after 1 week that the doorbell rang, passport arrived.
And furthermore treated correctly by everyone
fr gr KBaker
Dear Gringo,
The Embassy is like an administrative office comparable to the Civil Affairs department at a town hall?
The counter policy at the Embassy is that only the applicant for a visa is admitted to a counter and that on the grounds of alleged aggressiveness?
Such a counter policy is unthinkable at a town hall and the Embassy is a piece of the Netherlands in Thailand, isn't it? At a town hall you take a number and you can enter, unless you behave aggressively. Only then will the police be called.
How does the sponsor living in Thailand obtain a legalized guarantee statement at the Embassy if he is not admitted to a counter?
The embassy staff are like people who sometimes make mistakes? This can sometimes be found in the responses, while at the same time it becomes clear that the error will still be corrected?
You sketch a one-sided subjective story, not at all based on empirical facts. You believe the embassy staff because of their blue eyes without checking that story. Bad journalism. Critical comments to check, unpublished
gives those personnel a license to continue with those practices. Precisely because their mistakes have not been corrected after countless emails and to stop those practices, there is now a lawsuit for an unlawful government act against those people, who can always be emailed and correct their mistakes.
I wonder if the site publishes the verdict.
To be continued.
Peter Hagen, now almost a lawyer.
@ Peter, I can't escape the impression that the embassy can never do anything right in your eyes. You never respond to Thailand blog except when it comes to the embassy, then you run completely empty.
Write your comments under a different name and almost explode. Try to keep your emotions under control. Of course an embassy also makes mistakes, they are just people.
Everyone was allowed to have their say on Thailandblog and Gringo went to the embassy with the reactions. Hear and hear, as it should be. Don't forget that the embassy can only provide a general response. It is not possible to comment on specific situations because of the privacy of those involved.
Perhaps your problems with the embassy in Bangkok also have to do with your own attitude. Sometimes a cooperative attitude does help. That can have more effect than just wanting to prove you right.
Moderator: Your comment is off topic
My response is about the VFS appointment system. There is something that I do not understand very well, namely the usefulness of this, It would be that this serves to relieve the embassy staff more when it comes to making the visa appointment. Before the VFS service intervened, there was a well-functioning computer system on which you could easily arrange an appointment, it seemed to be a fully automatic program that worked quickly and well.
Now VFS is in between and in my experience it is not so easy anymore. Firstly, VFS asks for a small amount, which must first be deposited into a bank account, and then you can make the appointment. Since my girlfriend in Thailand does not speak English very well, I would make the appointment from the Netherlands on the appropriate VFS site, and what my surprise: You can open the site, but when you get to the point of making the agreement, you can only perform this last step if you do this via a computer which is stationed in Thailand, is from the Netherlands, or maybe in the meantime, this was not possible !! in short, I do not understand the purpose of VFS in the appointment system, I do not see the time gain for the embassy, because the previous system worked automatically, and now it seems that an extra threshold has been raised !! ??
Whatever may be said at the Embassy, from a well-informed source, Peter van der Loo, ex-consular officer, stationed in Chiang Mai for a short time, the only reason for using VFS Globel is an austerity measure. I don't know why officials are still believed in their blue eyes. It's like politics and who believes a politician?
July of this year I made an appointment for my girlfriend from the Netherlands.
The VFS appointment system is the biggest drama I've seen in years. In May 2012 I wanted to make an appointment, via VFS. Choosing a date is just possible, choosing a time is not even possible! 'Default' is chosen the first time of the day, and that cannot be changed. This is useful if there is only 1 flight per day to Bangkok.
Appointment therefore canceled and rescheduled. Same error again and after repeating the system says casually and without warning that you have to go to the bank again to pay!
Email exchange with VFS: 'Yes, indeed you cannot choose a time. The best thing to do is to apologize to the embassy for being late.' Really happened. Monty Python could learn a thing or two from this.
I agree with the previous writers that the appointment system that the embassy HAD worked fine. So it is not a cut because it was already automated. Scheming, corruption, bribes, pickpocketing and fun holiday trips are, in my opinion, the cause of this drama. But it is OUR drama!! Please, Mr. Bosma, intervene!
My girlfriend had that too, I had to translate a few words for her when she started working herself. The appointment was also early in the morning, while she would have preferred an hour later (was better because of travel time), but she thought this was a mistake on her part.
When she called to see if it could be done an hour later, VFS said "no that's not possible, the appointment is now set, then you just have to make a new one (and pay for it)"... Nice... So I got up very early then...
The VFS appointment system was introduced because it regularly happened that people did not show up for the appointment. Dozens of agreements (without the name of the person concerned) were also made simultaneously by intermediaries and travel organizations, which were then completed later. Here, too, many agreements were not fulfilled. Now that you have to pay for it, this is limited to the minimum. And organizations no longer make dozens of appointments at the same time.
Dear namesake Peter,
Thanks for posting my comment this time. As far as I'm concerned, you don't have to post my comment, but you can of course. You can think of it as an equally personal response to your interpretation of my deflating, exploding emotions.
Who says the Embassy can never do anything right again? I have closely followed the subject of “the Dutch embassy again” and I think that a number of compatriots have been treated so scandalously that it evokes vicarious shame in me. That kind of treatment has to change under the direction of the leaders in the consular department. You can complete purely administrative work with a MAVO diploma, but good management requires a bit more. The Embassy is there to provide services to compatriots and to their dependent Thai visa applicants, who are often submissive to their culture, because women.
After 2 pointless objections, my girlfriend was then welcome in the Netherlands 2 times without any problems. Fine right? Since then I have taken the guarantee statements with me from the good service-providing Dutch town hall without a date.
Yesterday, a week after sending it by mail, I received my statement of income stamped in the name of Feliz Devici back. Fine right?
With a cooperative institution, exactly the same thing would have happened in 2009 with that door policy in combination with poorly instructed Thai employees.
I assume that those employees will now communicate with sponsors, return the sponsorship statement to the visa applicant along with the announcement that your friend, the sponsor, can now enter to have his sponsorship statement legalised. Fine right? Maybe because of my teaching qualities or would that be too much credit?
In retrospect you can say that I should have made a lot of noise on the spot. But it was my girlfriend's first visa application. No one can conclude from the vague description of the grounds for rejection what is missing. Little did I know that statement was not legalized. Little did I know that the employee there was blundering. I was under the impression that after my girlfriend asked for my passport everything was fine. Neither the Embassy nor the Visa Service have contradicted this in their replies to countless complaint emails, corrected the error or apologized for the suffering caused.
That the actual ground for rejection was the up to 2 times non-legalized guarantor declarations, I only found out 2 years later, when after 2 years of wrangling from the Embassy and the Visa Service and pleading for her file, only after a notice of default with a penalty, I finally received her file.
You learn from your mistakes. Me, too. But trust in the expertise of Bali staff is not a mistake in my opinion, but a must.
Many compatriots are now benefiting from my expert detonations and Khun Peter, if you can read between the lines a bit, I'm choking on humour, my sense of perspective is pretty great and on an empathy test I scored 100% in my working life.
Did you already know that I'm also a perseverant and don't let people walk all over me?
Yours faithfully,
Peter Hagen
Again, after all these messages, it comes down to the fact that everyone with a passport and visa abroad, so also for example the Thai in the Netherlands, must be helped, and even better than at town hall / civil affairs in their own country, because you as a tourist or expat you are often faced with unpleasant situations, which you can easily solve in your own country, but cause many problems abroad. The story of tjamuk about that bum has nothing to do with a tourist or expat/worker, And furthermore, these investigations by blog are very good and if with these comments / complaints / solutions the embassy is visited by someone from the editors, I think the question is, who pays these costs, therefore an offer of a joint compensation !!
In the seventies, special transport was done for ballast/nedam that was building the port in Bahrain, it was just before they started using sea containers, so transport by road and then crossing 9 borders and even at Turkey/Siri/Aleppo. you 3 days because all papers had to be converted into Arabic,….you better not be now….On one of the return journeys between Jordan and Damascus I took someone with me who had car trouble, he had to go to Damascus and drove with me. Arrived in damascus, the man suddenly wanted to get out, I stopped and the man ran off ... with my wallet, so no money and to the embassy .... At that time no mobile phone, no pins, no email, no fax, but telex and telephone at embassy, there through the business in ned. had money and could continue, so good embassy then, but to drive the same route now!!! But we have all means of communication / payment and therefore again, embassies do your best for unexpected and unforeseen problems BVD
Dear reader,
In my opinion, the Embassy can no longer do anything good (continued)?
This morning I received confirmation from Mrs. Feliz Devici that my girlfriend, as a close relation of the Embassy, can make use of the Orange Carpet procedure.
Her verbatim answer to my Visa Code-based questions about a simplified procedure for honest and trustworthy visa applicants:
”the Orange Carpet procedure is not reserved for business people, but can also be used by frequent travelers / relations with whom the Embassy maintains intensive contacts”.
May I conclude that my teaching qualities, my exploding emotions, my perseverance, my study of the Visa Code and the Awb, my irony, and if necessary because I do not allow myself to be treated as a doormat, my sarcasm in the correspondence with the Embassy are starting to bear fruit or is that too much credit?
Compatriots who frequently travel to the Netherlands with partners or if you, like me, maintain intensive contacts with the Embassy: take advantage of this, it saves you pointless travel back and forth to Bangkok, the travel costs and the costs of VFS Global
Thanks for the report, nice to hear that people are working with VFS Global, where exactly the error is is not entirely clear (probably with VFS).
the only thing I miss (well, miss is a bit of a big word) is a further explanation Hp refusing referees (NL partners) when a stranger reports, that this was to avoid trouble was already known, but real details ( how often did it go wrong? was there a lot of fuss over nothing, type of hot-temper who is not aware of the obligations/requirements of the embassy or because the service at the desk itself exceeded the wishes? How to act if the foreign national gets stuck or gets confused, can the sponsor come in to make everything run smoothly? Fortunately, everything turned out well with us and I was not in Thailand at the time of the direct MVV application anyway, but I did tell my girlfriend that she -should another situation arise in which she is wrongly sent away- should not let herself be walked over and then ask for the manager. But a Thai will not do that so quickly. That perseverance and asking questions can also be done respectfully / are they of course less accustomed to than the direct (sometimes blunt) Dutch. Well, see it as a learning opportunity. It won't happen to us again, but I have to think of people after us who get stuck at the counter for whatever reason.
What I miss is the clarity that the IND regulations are decisive, and must be leading, for the embassy. Why this is important can be seen from the following: With regard to guarantee, it is stated above that having an X amount in the bank account is not sufficient for the financial guarantee per holiday day requirement. However, the IND website does state that a fixed amount in a bank account is sufficient. It is precisely because of this kind of additional provisions or interpretation by the local embassy that the process for applying for a tourist visa becomes troubled / unclear. If there are rules, make sure they are unambiguous and do not specify or supplement them yourself.
Indeed, according to the standard Schengen visa requirements for CRR, the foreign national only needs to prove that he has 34 euros per person per day of stay available. This information is also available on the IND site. However, countries and embassies may impose additional requirements on top of the standard requirements. Some Dutch embassies therefore have additional requirements for short-stay visas, MVV visas, etc.
It's not really clear on the VFS site either:
– if you pay all costs yourself: prove that you have at least Euro 34 per day to cover the costs throughout your stay in the Netherlands.
(documents required: eg original bank book, employment letter, traveler's checks or similar documents)
The requirement is therefore the same as the standard European requirement of 34 euros p/p/p/d. Between brackets is something about an employer paper. However, this would not serve as an income requirement but as a possible proof of reason for returning. After all, in order not to get a “danger of settlement” rejection, supporting evidence such as real estate, registration with a training course or employer, etc. is required. In principle, you could also enter without a job as long as you can reasonably demonstrate that you do not pose a risk of settlement as a foreigner. I think it's been put out a bit strange here in the Q&A. Or the NL embassy has set this as an extra requirement… then students, pensioners and the consciously unemployed would lose weight, for example… I don't think that kite is going up with a 1-2% rejection percentage per year.
My girlfriend received the VKV last year by showing 34 euros pppd, most of which I had simply deposited. As proof of no danger of settling, she had, among other things, a few papers that she has her own shop (a village shop, which is not much..). A rejection based on the danger of establishment is often contested by means of an objection. If the foreign national and guarantor have a clear statement about their intentions, an embassy can never substantiate that there is real evidence of a risk of settlement or that the purpose of travel is not plausible enough. So always object if rejected on that ground.
Thank you Rob for your detailed response. You more or less confirm what I said. It bothers me that there is a lack of clarity between what is listed as necessary documents and conditions via the IND's customer service guide on the one hand and the additional requirements / documents that are not specified that can be required at the local embassy. As a citizen/customer you may assume that an exhaustive list as stated on the IND site should be sufficient. If not, it should also be stated there that a local embassy may/may require additional information. The extra information seems to me to be mostly a matter of self-importance or creating extra employment rather than a real additional check. Let's not forget the purpose of the information: a tourist stay in the Netherlands and Europe for less than 3 months (in my case a visit by a daughter to her mother and a married Dutch man). With 22 years of government service, I am not entirely unfamiliar with rules and the way in which they are created and then have to be implemented. However, “more” is not always better. My advice is to limit yourself to the legal requirements and do not make it unnecessarily more complex by asking for extra information that is not required.
On the site of the Foreign Partner Foundation I read that the embassy now only conducts 2 WIB exams per day? That doesn't really seem like much to me, especially since there will be certain peak and trough moments in the number of WIB/MVV applications. Or will they take extra exams at those peak moments (with upcoming new rules/requirements, for example) so that someone doesn't have to wait more than a month or even miss out?
That WIB exam also seems to be able to generate money for the state if you read it this way, the fees are 350 euros, if more come up than expected and there are few objections, then the costs will be lower than estimated:
“The cost of the exam of €350 consists of €146 for embassies and consulates, structural adjustments, personnel and the like, €43 for handling objections and appeals by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and IND, €88 for license exams, telephone and renewal of the assignments, and a €73 risk surcharge in case fewer exams are taken than forecast.”
Source : https://zoek.officielebekendmakingen.nl/kst-29700-35.pdf
I promised my wife's son that if he passes his high school final exams in the top three of his class, he can go on holiday to the Netherlands with me. He is then 18 years old, does not yet have a job, has not yet registered for university, etc. How can I prevent his visa application from being rejected?
In any case, write an accompanying letter in which you explain why he is coming to the Netherlands (making the purpose of his trip plausible) and why he will return (making the risk of settlement improbable). But how great are the chances without official document-supported ties or duties in the home country (conscription??) I dare not say. If you receive a rejection, then file an objection, because you have given reasons that there is no danger and the embassy cannot provide hard reasons/evidence that there is indeed danger.
For more information, there is the necessary expertise on the website of the Foreign Partner Foundation. And of course a nice blog here on TB:
https://www.thailandblog.nl/expats-en-pensionado/visa/schengenvisum-thaise-vriendin-aanvragen-lees-tips/
The day before yesterday I was at the embassy in Bangkok to have an income statement legalized. I only had to wait 5-10 minutes before it was my turn. The lady at the counter asked if there were any problems getting a visa (I was applying for my multiple entry non-immigrant visa).
Very friendly and for a short time I was outside again with my papers. I thought it was all neat. Let's hope that the next step, when I want to go on holiday in the Netherlands/Germany for two weeks and want to take my girlfriend with me, will also go smoothly.
Dear Jack,
Good service from the Embassy? It varies according to my experience with the officer handling an application. A native official reacts differently to a Dutch one, every expat and other initiates in Thai culture know that.
Recently I received an e-mail from the Embassy stating that my girlfriend, as agreed as a “close relation” of the Embassy, would submit her Orange Carpet application personally from Mrs Devici, saying that I could still send my forgotten pension details by e-mail. Excellent service. I also had other experiences.
Unfortunately I don't live in Bangkok but in Khon Kaen. When I visited in person, the following would not have happened. For your information: I have registered with the Embassy as a Dutch citizen residing in Thailand and as a “close relation” they have both my telephone number and my email address.
Last month I applied for a consular certificate but forgot to send proof of payment, because I have never had to prove that I paid. That should be done by the party to be paid, in this case the Embassy. Of course I had paid through my ING. The statement was returned immediately. And that goes quickly via EMS, because "NEXT DAY DELIVERY" Of course I immediately corrected that "error" due to imminent overstay and immediately sent the requested proof of payment. You don't believe it? Am I making a mistake now? My postage receipt from the post office tells me not. However, according to the Embassy, my second shipment would have been on the road for 10 days before it was received and returned personally stamped by Mr. Bosma.
To my complaint about the optima forma stupidity, the immediate return of an important document, while they have my telephone number and e-mail address, I received the following answer, I quote: “for reasons of urgency, incomplete applications are returned immediately, with the return documents immediately, you do not lose unnecessary days, which puts you at risk of overstay”,
My complaint about making their own legal rules with regard to payment transactions, it is their job to check the status of the payment, the burden of proof is not on me, the Embassy could not place.
Do you already understand? The income statement came much too late. After an extension of stay for a week I was also able to do a visa run.
My request for compensation was declined and a follow-up email was responded to with a referral to the National Ombudsman. So again to be continued.
Moderator or others interested in this matter: [email protected]
Hello Peter,
Not the best experience to read. To prevent this, I traveled to Bangkok and stayed overnight, so that we (girlfriend was with me) could be there early the next morning. I filled out my form at home.
That took a bit of time, but that way I didn't run any risk. You said it yourself that it wouldn't have happened to you.
By the way, I also got my annual visa without any problems at the immigration office in Hua Hin.
Dear Jack,
If you live in the area, a personal visit is the best option and, in my experience in Chiang Mai, it is also pleasant. I collected my first income statement because I was staying there with my girlfriend. There, at the then consulate, I met Peter van der Loo, a friendly interested official, with whom I talked for a long time after completing the formalities about everything that concerned him and me. That's how it can be. My experiences at the Embassy with Jitze Bosma were, perhaps because he felt cornered by the blunders of the native Embassy staff, see above, of a completely different nature.
But from Khon Kaen just go back and forth to Bangkok and celebrate a holiday in that busy stinking city if you can do it by mail. As far as I'm concerned, never.
Regards Mety,
Peter Hagen
Dear Peter,
It is not the first time that you write a comment about your dissatisfaction with the work of the embassy staff. Constantly and therefore again now it is noticeable that you make mistakes in thinking or in procedures, but you can do nothing about it. It is that staff who have to accept and correct your failure.
Let's see what you're writing now. You have registered at the Embassy and so (?) they could have called or emailed you. You should know, however, that those registration details are secret (privacy protection) and may only be used in case of a calamity.
You forget to enclose proof of payment with the application for an income statement. Not smart, because that is clearly stated in the instructions on the website. You had to pay something, so it's up to you whether you actually did. Of course, the burden of proof is not on the recipient, in this case the embassy, but on you. You should know that if you deposit something into a Thai bank account, the recipient cannot see who the sender is. That is admittedly a shortcoming of the Thai banks, but you cannot blame the embassy for that.
If your income statement came too late, you simply applied for it too late. You should have taken into account, among other things, delays in the mail. Fine for overstay and a visa run became your share, your own fault, big bump!
Peter, you probably only do the visa application once a year. Why don't you act like Jack? Go to Bangkok on time for a day, make it a holiday trip with your possible partner. Probably even cheaper than that fine and that visa run.
Dear Gringo,
Thank you for your empathetic public oversimplified scrubbing.
It is not the first time that you have expressed your dissatisfaction with the work of the embassy staff. You constantly notice that you make mistakes in procedures and the staff must accept and correct that failure”?
Please read carefully about all that went terribly well at the Embassy and expressing my pleasure and gratitude about it. 3 hassle-free visas for my girlfriend, now even via an Orange Carpet application, and 3 ditto income statements for me.
By this constant dissatisfaction and failure you can mean nothing else than that when my girlfriend applied for a visa for the first time, I was refused entry to the consular bali and, knowing that I was waiting outside, the official in question did not give her that document. , so that I could have it legalized personally. That was simply a stupidity of the respective native visa officer or a lack of clear instructions from the head of the consular service.
Honestly, I have no idea why you are trying to defend that stupidity, refusing entry on the grounds of alleged aggressiveness is an unlawful act of government, as a procedural error, the Embassy itself can do that, although I fear they against, because the Dutch Ombudsman is busy with my complaint and a request for compensation.
I didn't know that my address details were secret and could only be used in case of calamities. Never looked into it actually. According to the WBP, the Embassy is not allowed to disclose that personal data, but whether it is not allowed to use it to approach me in a different way? Incidentally, I also receive invitations for (New Year's) receptions through that secret data.
Gringo, you as an expert know that the website states that you can pay by enclosing cash or by transferring money to the account number of HMA Bangkok, The Hague. Why do you assume that I transferred money to a Thai bank account number? It's not even on the website. Apparently you have not even looked at it, because then you could also have known that contact details (telephone number / email address) are requested with a written request for a statement.
Dear fellow bloggers, how often have you been asked to send a copy of a transfer with internet payments, to prove that payment has been made? The Embassy is the first to ask me that since I started internet banking.
The Embassy can put anything on their website because it suits them better, but that does not mean it is normal practice. It is normal in the payment system that you, as an account holder, give a payment order to your bank and that the bank sends a statement to both the client and the recipient after the order has been executed.
The case officer should simply have checked their account with their bank via internet banking to see whether or not payment had been made and only then should they have returned the statement.
“You just applied for the income statement too late”?
Why too late? The Embassy speaks of 10 days, the previous statements were received within a week, now it has taken 17 days.
Dear Gringo, where mincemeat is made, chips fall, where people work, mistakes are made. If I had e-mailed them with the second shipment where is that statement, they might have woken up and that statement would not have been at the Embassy for a week. Patiently waiting for the mailman every day was a gross blunder on my part. I also made mistakes in my working life. That was rarely a problem with my job because I could admit them and usually fix them. The problem with an error by a civil servant is that if he admits that error, it often comes with a price tag, in my case a fairly high amount of compensation, and the government is clearly not happy about that.
Have a nice day in Thailand. Here in the Netherlands, March is quite a stir with its tail.
Yours faithfully,
Peter Hagen
The embassy is currently asking for feedback on their services through a questionnaire:
http://thailand.nlambassade.org/nieuws/2013/04/feedback-03-2013-kopie.html
“The embassy is asking for YOUR opinion?
News item | March 11 2013
Welcome to the Dutch embassy in Bangkok. The embassy wants to improve its services and therefore asks for your input…..
That is why we ask for a few minutes of your time to answer a number of questions – anonymously. You can download the questionnaire here.
Many thanks in advance for your cooperation”
Perhaps various readers or their (Thai) partners would like to know the embassy what they think about the service (or lack thereof).
You can download the following PDF on that page:
http://thailand.nlembassy.org/appendices/news/feedback-from.html
Moderator: your complaint about the embassy is now sufficiently clear. You are repeating yourself, that is chatting and not allowed.