A closer look at issuing Schengen visas in Thailand (part 2)
This is a follow up to mine earlier piece on the issuance of Schengen visas by embassies in Thailand. In it I compared the number of applications and issuance to give an idea of the visa issuance at the embassies in Bangkok.
The Dutch embassy turned out to be quite popular and, in terms of rejections, was a nice middle ground. The Belgian embassy clearly received a lot fewer applications and - after Sweden - turned out to reject the most visas.
But how do the Dutch and Belgian embassies compare to the Dutch and Belgian posts elsewhere in the world?
We look again at the figures for 2013. The Dutch embassy in Bangkok is also doing well, and the Belgian embassy is once again a bit more difficult.
Does the number of Thais coming to the Netherlands or Belgium for a short stay mean anything?
Thailand is doing quite well if you compare this with other visa-required countries. If you look at the top 20 countries with the most applications, Thailand is about halfway. A great achievement when you consider that there are 124 countries of which a Schengen visa is required for those citizens.
It should be noted that citizens from neighboring countries of Thailand often submit their application through a Schengen embassy in Thailand, as there is no representation in their own country.
For example, Cambodians and Laotians will also be included in the Thai figures. These are actually 'production figures' of how many applications an embassy has to process. Unfortunately, there are no figures on how many people with Thai nationality come to the low countries for a short stay, nor can it be ascertained for what purpose (visiting friends/family, tourism, business) or for how long.
Nevertheless, I believe that this provides a good picture of the (extent of the) issuance of Schengen visas by our embassies, in particular how the embassies are doing in comparison to each other.
What stands out?
Take Morocco, where more applications are submitted to the Dutch embassy, but based on the number of visas issued, more people will eventually receive a visa in Thailand.
Rejection rates are higher for most African and Middle Eastern countries. From Asia, the number of applications and rejection rates are quite reasonable. Although I don't think it will surprise anyone that countries that are more westernized or with a historical connection, issue even more visas and are also doing well in terms of grants.
How are the Dutch embassies doing?
The Netherlands receives by far the most applications from Russia (73.800), followed at some distance by Turkey (47.500), China (44.400) and India (34.000). Indonesia (30.600) and the Philippines (22.300) also receive many applications. Thailand (10.000) comes in 13th place in terms of applications, with the number of issues (9.800) Thailand is in 11th place.
The Dutch embassies in Asia are not doing badly, in Thailand 2,4% of applications are rejected, which is comparable to Vietnam (2,9% of 4.500 applications), the Philippines (3,2% of 22.200 applications) , China (2,5% on 44.300 applications). Indonesia is doing slightly better (1,6% on 30.600 applications). With 2,4% rejections, the embassy in Thailand is on a par with embassies in China, Vietnam and Tanzania (2,1% on 1.000 applications).
How are the Belgian embassies doing?
Belgium receives the most applications from India (36.500), Russia (21.800) and Congo (19.700). China (17.200), Turkey (12.000) and Morocco (10.500) are also quite popular. Thailand (5.200) follows in 11th place, Thailand is also in 4.600th place in terms of number of issued (11) visas.
Unfortunately, it seems to be a trend that the Belgian posts are rejecting more visas. In relative terms, the embassy in Thailand (11,9% rejections out of 5.246 applications) is also slightly more difficult than Belgian embassies in the region: Vietnam (5,8% out of 1800 applications), China (4,3% out of 17.200 applications), Philippines ( 7,1% on 6.800 applications).
Only in Indonesia is it more difficult, but the number of applications there is nil, so that a percentage says very little (14,3% on 21 applications). Worldwide, the embassy with its rejections is a somewhat lesser average, which is comparable to Qatar (11,1% of 1.100 applications), Turkey (11,2% of 12.000 applications) and Jordan (11,6% of 1.400 applications).
More information can be found in the more detailed appendix.
Author: Rob V.
Source statistics: ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs
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My compliments, Rob, for all that fluff of numbers. Interesting to read.
So this is part 2, maybe there will be a part 3 and more and I'm a bit premature with a few questions:
1. The visa stamp issued by the NL Embassy gives the right to travel to the Netherlands, but not yet the right to admission. The final decision on whether or not to be admitted is taken upon arrival in the Netherlands. Are there figures known of how many Thais are still refused admission?
2. I assume that a Thai with a short stay visa is not allowed to work in the Netherlands. Yet there are countless occasions where massage and more are offered by Thai ladies. The number of these must be in the thousands. Are they all legal in the Netherlands, for which a visa has NOT been refused by the Dutch embassy? In that case I would think that the rejection rate could be a bit higher.
3. It is possible that many of the ladies referred to in the previous point end up in the Netherlands via a Schengen country with a low rejection rate. How is the IND monitoring this and are figures known from visa holders who are still deported prematurely?
2 is completely correct, you are not allowed to work with a short-stay visa.
But in many massage parlors ladies are indeed working with a short stay visa. There is no control over this.
Many Thai ladies who offer their services in the various massage parlors here and there in the Netherlands and many other Western European countries are often ladies with a residence permit or, in fact, possess Dutch citizenship, or in other words, they are simply separated from their husbands in order to generate some extra income in this way, often accompanied by room and board.
@ Sir Charles: this is a bit short sighted. The issue may not be so much that they are divorced to generate extra income, but whether they work in those massage parlors because the husband they are separated from is cheating on any maintenance obligations.
Both come down to the same thing, however, the statement / question was whether the ladies are staying illegally. There will probably be a Thai person somewhere in one of the many massage parlors who is staying illegally, but in general that does not apply.
It would also be very flashy if that were the case, given the many advertisements, especially in the Saturday editions of De Telegraaf and Algemeen Dagblad.
Dear Gringo, thank you for your compliments. There is more in the works, I want to take a closer look at migration from Thai to the Netherlands. I can't give a substantiated answer to your questions yet, but as an advance:
1- I don't know if they register rejections at the border by nationality. These figures will be incomplete anyway because you can enter via any Schengen country. But I'm going to see if I can say something about this, I don't think many Thai people are being refused. After all, if you still meet the conditions under which the visa was issued, there is no reason to refuse it at the border.
2. These will mainly be immigrants, whether there are figures about people who work illegally for 3 months on a VCR I dare not say. Although I think this should not be too bad given the review by the embassy.
3. I'm going to find out.
Last time I tried to place my criticism, but you clearly do not dare to offend the embassy. So I have now filed my complaint with MinBuZa and with a few political parties.
On the NL website there is NOTHING about a fast procedure for a business visa, while the French DO indicate it: within 3 working days.
My Thai business relations are now avoiding the Dutch embassy, not least because of my advice.
Dear Harry, with a complete application, the maximum processing time is 15 (calendar) days. In practice, a visa could be completed after a few days, unfortunately due to the problems with "back office posts", all visa applications from SE Asia are now sent to Kuala Lumpur, so the application now takes 5 working days. There is certainly something to complain about, at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs or by voting for parties that hold different opinions about the importance and division of tasks of the activities at embassies. It has become more and more sober in recent years. Rightly so according to one, a scandal according to another. You can only do something about that if you make your voice heard, although even then I consider the chance that the current set-up of “back” and “front” offices for visa processing will be canceled.
Personally, I don't see why a business visa should be processed faster than a tourist visa or visa for visiting family/friends or any other purpose. A visa simply needs to be processed as soon as possible, whether you come here to visit a company and invest money or to be a tourist and spend money here. It would of course be ideal if you have clarity within 24 hours, but the government makes a different cost/benefit analysis. In the planning of the EU Home Affairs, the plan is to reduce the lead time from 15 days (2 weeks) to 1 week.
Of course I also understand that more capacity costs more money, I would rather opt for a "Schengen embassy" where one can submit visa applications for all Schengen countries. Then people can sit full-time on visa issues and thus make a decision within 24 hours with a complete file. It also removes the atmosphere of arbitrariness, such as the Belgians who seem to be consistently more rigid. With the emphasis on corpses, since the Belgians do not give any interpretation to their figures. I think any bona fide person should just be able to travel as smoothly and quickly as possible. Of course you don't want rogue applicants, but I still have my doubts about the rejections by Belgium, are there really so many more rogue people coming there? Or does the balance simply tip more quickly to “unfortunately peanut butter”? Would be a great deal if travelers to Thailand would receive the same treatment, and if there is even one blemish or question that you are not welcome. I think many tourists would be annoyed that they are not welcome. Bona fide travelers should simply be granted access as quickly and easily as possible, in my opinion, and preferably visa-free in the long term. If there are only a handful of malfied persons - who can also be stopped by the KMar at the border - then a visa system is simply a frustrating, money-consuming machine for the applicant and the government.
That the French do make a distinction per travel purpose, that is allowed, as long as a decision is made within 15 days (to be extended to 30 days if supplementation is still required or, in exceptional cases, 60 days if further investigation is deemed necessary). I myself am of the principle "equal monks, equal hoods", so everyone has the same -as good as possible- throughput time. Incidentally, the NL embassy does have an Oranje Loper system, whereby demonstrably bona fide travelers receive a kind of VIP procedure, since the visa procedure should simply be a matter of stamping and therefore the applicant and embassy (back and front office) only waste unnecessary time and money. costs money. Frequent travelers can therefore best use a multiple entry visa.
Oranje Loper, also for bona fide business travelers:
http://thailand.nlambassade.org/producten-en-diensten/consular-services/visum-voor-nederland/oranje-carpet-aanvraag.html
So I would not see why you would avoid NL, not to mention that you are obliged to apply for the visa at the embassy of the country that is the main purpose of the trip (a requirement that is also under discussion by the EU, you may be able to In the future, you can therefore go to any embassy for a Schengen visa, regardless of whether that country is your main destination). I would especially share concrete (negative or positive) experiences with the embassy, after all, feedback is always welcome, isn't it? Or possibly with fellow sufferers so that you can discuss it or that your own experience is recognized by others.
What is on the website could be overruled by a specific answer to a specific question, but in this case this has repeatedly NOT been done by the NL visa department, while the French site does mention those 3 days.
The NL site only contains “15 days”, and nowhere the word: “maximum” nor “in practice shorter”.
In the most recent, but emphatically not the only case, it concerned a person whose company and personal data could be seen on that company's website. In this case, in addition, a repeat visa.
Last time, the person in question had to submit a bank statement signed by her accountant regarding the correctness of the company data. After all, one had to be sure that the person in question had a valid reason to return to TH as co-owner of two factories.
The French had seen enough with a look at their website, and two days later everything was fine. (today - have it delivered, tomorrow - have it picked up).
By the way: I would NOT think of handing over my passport to anyone for 15 days in an international position: neither in NL nor in TH would I think about blocking my travel options for that long. Then don't go to that country.
That so-called orange carpet indicates quite a few limitations. The vast majority of Thai exporters to the EU do not fall under the clients defined on the website: because they are a Thai company without a subsidiary in the Netherlands or even the EU. There is also no "frequent travel" situation, but for example once a year and with food usually every other year OR SIAL - Paris OR Anuga - Cologne. The fact that someone arrives at Schiphol and travels around NL with a business relation, even staying there, I do not see as decisive for NL.
Also, there is usually emphatically no question of an exclusive partnership.
see text website:
Clients:
-Dutch companies with a subsidiary in Thailand;
-Thai companies with a subsidiary in the Netherlands;
-Dutch companies with an exclusive partnership with a Thai company;
whose employees need to travel frequently to the Netherlands for business, can apply for the “Orange Carpet” visa facilitation program.
-Diplomatic/service passport holders (via protocol), politicians, government employees, local authorities
-Cultural exchange, sports events, conferences, congresses
-Close relations of the Embassy
If the text on the website is not complete, that is a task for the NL embassy.
This experience was expressly shared, but without any further response, except for repeating the text on their own website.
The fact that the EU has not yet come to a single point for Schengen visas, so obvious, because everyone should set the same conditions, while free travel applies once within the Schengen area, is a political matter, which must therefore be resolved through politics needs to be addressed and resolved. Since this will have personnel consequences in the various visa departments, I do not expect any initiative from that quarter.
For me as a Dutch person, all this is still a limited issue, for my Thai relations it is no longer an issue at all.
The conclusion therefore remains the same: if you want a (business) visa to Europe quickly: ignore the NL embassy.
if you simply meet all the conditions, then you will always receive a visa, but the rejections do not meet the guarantee, that is not the embassy's problem, but yourself, you do not meet the guarantee condition and all the requirements that are set , and of course they are not allowed to work, but there are those who have girlfriends who have a massage parlor, and they work there now and then, but I can say that there is very strict control, there by the authorities, why would you take a risk, just act normal, your girlfriend can come back next time if everything goes smoothly,
An interesting article. All this is based on figures from 2013. I wonder how that is now because the visa application is currently going through Malaysia. Does the Dutch Embassy in Bangkok have an important say in this?
It's true what Gringo says. A visa – strange as that may sound – does not entitle you to enter our country. It is the Marechaussee that determines that. I have never heard of a Thai being sent back, but my own partner was briefly interrogated by the Marechaussee the first two times that he came to the Netherlands for a holiday and was then able to continue. After that never happened again.
What the Thai also needs to have with him, besides of course the visa, are copies of the documents that were needed for the visa application.
Dear TH.NL, I don't find it so strange that if people at the border doubt whether the traveler is bona fide, they can still refuse entry. Fortunately, the visa holder receives a piece of paper in the passport that once again contains the most important requirements and that you must be able to demonstrate this at the border. However, not all embassies seem to do this, while you are not waiting for crap from the KMar when they check whether, for example, the financial picture is correct (34 euros per day for a stay in the Netherlands OR a guarantor).
I will ask the KMar about questions at the border, my girlfriend was able to go through all 3 of her trips, others report that they get various questions the first or all times or even taken separately. The question is whether Thais are on the risk list, but that does not explain why the varying experiences when passing through the border.
The EU is currently working on simplifying the Schengen visa procedure, requirements and forms. I encourage that, the more bona fide travelers with as little inconvenience or ambiguity as possible, the better. Fewer rules in advance (such as the abolition of compulsory insurance), less chance that you have forgotten proof at the border. This was announced in April of this year -see also a TB blog about that EU press release-, but will be adopted and come into effect sometime in 2015 at the earliest. Since there are still consultations, I personally think that they will not be able to complete the new, simpler and more flexible procedures in 2015.
Incidentally, all applications have been going through Kuala Lumpur since the autumn (October?) of 2013. That is a suction from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. The disadvantage is that the lead time now takes at least a few days, whereas this could have been done more quickly in the past. After all, you didn't have the whole time waste of sending passports between BKK (or other embassies in Asia) to KL and back.
The embassy no longer has any authority, it is purely a front office. They ask some questions (the scope and depth depend on various factors: has anyone been to the West before? Is there anything remarkable, such as an applicant who says that she has only known someone through the Internet for the past 2 months, which may indicate a risk of possible human trafficking if the applicant and sponsor barely know each other-), make notes where necessary and the embassy can give advice, which must be substantiated.
When my wife came to NL for the first time for a short stay, a Schengen visa was no problem at all, as was arrival in NL. No interrogation.
Her MVV in 2010, both application and arrival in NL, was no problem at all.
My conclusion is that if everything has been requested correctly and all conditions are met, then no problems are to be expected.
The moment you receive the MVV, check everything for any possible stupidity.
Ever thought of setting up exports to Thailand. Found a suitable person in TH, who had the skills to do it. Even a subsidy from the NL Ministry of Economic Affairs was promised a HFL 20,000. A work permit finally after 10 months, with the precondition: max one year, cannot be extended (so an academic quits his job in TH for a one-year adventure in NL)
Still took the step.
Until at Schiphol, returning from a business trip to London, her MVV card was examined more closely: born in Bangkok, passport from Bangkok-Thailand with Thai nationality, all papers from Thailand, but ... IND, in its infinite wisdom, had filled in as nationality: Taiwanese. (Dec 1, 2004). So…fraud, and she had one option left: one-way ticket back to Bangkok.
Even made it to the newspaper De Stem in Brabant, but any excuse IND….. is yet to come.
In the event of incidents (mistakes by the IND or government, you yourself forgot a piece of evidence while you actually comply with the rules), NEVER have you sent away, but immediately ask for a (on-call) lawyer or go after one yourself (a bit easier if you have a NL sponsor). who can call around). In the event of a mistake by the IND, this lady could probably have crossed the border after the intervention of a lawyer, on the condition that the IND would rectify the mistake and have the lady collect the correct pass as soon as possible. Errors are human, both by applicants and governments, so that is not immediately an insurmountable problem.
Don't be sent away, if at Schiphol the Kon Marechausse arrests you as a woman, who speaks English but not a word of Dutch, for forgery of an MVV plastic card?
There was nothing to talk about, nothing to call, she could have her luggage forwarded, that was all. It was not possible to go back to London, because that required a new visa. The only thing left was to book a one-way ticket to Bangkok with her credit card.
So I got a phone call from there. I didn't know a Thai could express himself so angry.
We have therefore ceased the activities of exporting products to SE Asia. Since then only from SE Asia to the EU.
Even the publication in De Stem, the daily newspaper of Brabant, has not received any response from the NL government. I'll send you a copy of it...
info at thaitrade dot nl.
NB: even when she later wanted to fly to the Netherlands after a trade fair in Dubai, this was not possible, because the Dutch embassy demanded a ticket booking BKK-ASD-BKK. The fact that quite a few airlines made a stopover there was clearly too big a step.
I will respond to this once as it is important that people who are refused at the border know what to do. Furthermore, I will not go into this anymore because that is Off Topic and for this woman it is unfortunately too late anyway.
She just refused I suppose, if she had been formally arrested she certainly had the right to a lawyer. Even with a "simple" refusal at the border, you can ask for it and wait for the lawyer. If she left without the intervention of a lawyer, it is an embarrassing mistake with unnecessary consequences for her. Not neat (even rude) from the KMar, but from their point of view, they will of course not make people wiser than necessary, such a lawyer is only a hassle for them. Deeply sad of course for this lady and for you (you had already written an extensive account on TB before). I think it's a shame what happened here.
If I hear it that way, she let herself be sent away like this, while a (on-call) lawyer or immigration lawyer could have meant a lot to her:
“If entry is refused, do not let yourself be sent back, but take a lawyer and let him object and ask for an urgent remedy at the court. If you don't have a lawyer on hand, ask for a picket lawyer. That in itself costs little or nothing, because you will be able to win your case and then the IND will have to reimburse the costs.”
Source: http://www.buitenlandsepartner.nl/showthread.php?54379-aankomst-Schiphol-voor-EU-toetsing-wat-zegt-BP-bij-douane&p=540747&viewfull=1#post540747
“You also only need a lawyer if access is actually refused.
If necessary, you can ask at Schiphol that a picket lawyer be warned. He will then take the necessary steps. And arrange for funded legal assistance to be applied for if you qualify (the standards are set out on http://www.rvr.org).”
Source: http://www.buitenlandsepartner.nl/showthread.php?42734-Visum-in-Bangkok-gekregen-toegang-NL-geweigerd-op-schiphol&p=571549&viewfull=1#post571549
In: http://www.buitenlandsepartner.nl/showthread.php?59425-aankomst-in-Nederland&p=595069&viewfull=1#post595069
Finally:
http://www.buitenlandsepartner.nl/showthread.php?13219-Politie-bij-de-Grens
NB: a BKK-AMS-BKK ticket is not a requirement, a ticket (reservation) via/from/to a third country to which the applicant has demonstrable access is also sufficient. So a Thai can go to New York via Dubai if she wants to. The embassy wants to see that you leave the Schengen area in time. A return reservation is the practice there for most people, but not a requirement. Check out the Visa Code and Handbook for Embassies. Can be found on the website of EU Home Affairs.
Have 2 questions about shengenvisa.for a short stay in Belgium
1 Is it important that one has proof of travel insurance to be allowed to come to Europe, is this looked at so strictly when someone from Thailand applies for a C visa
2. What should I understand by letter of invitation, what should it contain and to whom should it be addressed” to the person in question or to the embassy”? Are there some examples of this?
MVG
Steven
Dear Steve,
1) Yes travel insurance is a strict requirement for all Schengen countries. Naturally, the insurance must meet conditions such as the coverage ratio. Choose an airline in Europe (Belgium) or possibly a Thai one. The embassy should have a list of recognized Thai insurers. I would choose a Dutch (in your case Belgian) company because I expect potentially less hassle or hassle than a Thai one.
2) My knowledge mainly lies with NL. They work with a form for guarantee and/or accommodation. Each Member State regulates private residence differently. With a letter you should generally think of a letter in which you briefly state to the embassy that you are inviting your guest and that you will bear the costs/accommodation/…. Can you immediately explain why the going is coming and that you will see to it that the guest will comply with the rules and return to Thailand in time. How it is specifically for Belgium should be on the site of their embassy. Such a letter is therefore not required for the Netherlands, but a concise accompanying letter can do no harm there either.
@Steven: Your invitation letter should be addressed to the person in question. It is best to start with a page containing all the details of that person: name, address, passport number… So it often comes down to the fact that the embassy gets to read the inside of your soul when you invite your girlfriend to stay with you. It is best to include a number of your plans in your invitation letter (leave out sex, they will think so themselves), but getting out and mentioning daily activities is definitely recommended. Also end your letter with the decision that you invite her to your home and clearly state the address and the period, with start and end date. If your girlfriend does not understand Dutch, it is best to draw up the invitation in English. If you want to play it safe, have that letter translated into Thai by a translation agency recognized by the embassy, although this is not really a must.
My girlfriend came to Belgium last year, she got her visa easily.
My invitation letter was very short and simple.
What is important is that I stood surety for her (fill in the form and stamp it later in town hall)
Send payslips for the last 3 months and take out health insurance.
My friend also had a letter from the hospital where she works and proof that she has a house here.
Furthermore, a booking of a flight, which we later did not use.
It is especially important that they are convinced in the embassy that she will return to Thailand after her trip
Gret Philip
Dear everyone,
I can only agree with this, well summarized by the way Philip 🙂
For those who need more information, you can visit this site:
https://dofi.ibz.be/sites/dvzoe/NL/Gidsvandeprocedures/Pages/Doorreizen_of_verblijven_90_dagen_in_Belgie.aspx
So invitation letter in Dutch to the person you invite,
travel insurance (my wife had taken out something like this with Axa in Bangkok at the time for, if I remember correctly, 1300 baht),
to obtain a debit document from the municipality,
application copy for schenge visa, you can get this at the embassy,
pay slips last 3 months.
I think it is, but now the main thing:
You can provide proof that your wife/girlfriend in Thailand has obligations that make a return plausible, for example with a statement from the employer (person X is entitled to Y number of days of leave), but also with a certificate from the bank stating that she is paying off a loan on a house.
NB: we have been treated quite poorly at the Belgian embassy in Bangkok - they knowingly lied to us about the issue date of a long-term visa - and we advise everyone to be very careful with that mail.
Best regards,
Bruno